Double Bass 2 "EA" VL108 or 1 VL208?

[abaguer]

I prefer the VL208. I also own an LDS 208 but it is 2way. Don't use it at all with upright, way too dark. I still prefer the VL208 and Acme B1. Always keeping an eye out but still haven't found anything better than those two for upright.

The LDS 208 I have is much better for electric bass as the darkness of it gives the slab a little more uumph, but that is the same issue that makes it to dark for my upright IMHO. Don is a terrific guy and builder so I'd be curious if a 3 way design actually cleared things up.

 

[tombowlus]

Very cool. How deep into cables have you gotten?

Too deep, I fear! I have tried numerous cables, and as much as I wanted to disbelieve the hype, I have found that the more expensive cables often (but not always!) sound a small, but perceivable, bit better. The problem with being an audiophile addict, is that you thrive on the minutiae. If I hear a cable that I honestly feel makes my system sound .01% better (not just different, mind you, but actually better to my ears), the gear lust kicks in just as hard as the speakers that can make it sound 25% better. After moving through generic cables, custom made Mogami and Canare cables, various MIT wire, I am fairly settled in on Cardas Neutral Reference interconnects and speaker cables in the home system (some Quadlink for the HT channels). At the office, I use Ridge Street Audio interconnects and Audioquest Gibraltar bi-wire for speaker cables. Those little ProAc's really do sound better bi-wired (again, I went in as a skeptic, but dang it all, the bass was a bit more focused and the imaging and soundstage just a bit more realistic).

You are truly a rare breed - sound production and reproduction 'filer.

My wife has a few other adjectives that she uses in this regard...

Did you know many of the best high-end audio designers are bassists? Mark Levinson, Acoustic Energy (Phil Jones), etc...My website has my background in the "about" section at www.macmrkt.com.

Interesting stuff! Thanks for pointing that out. I do know that John Dong and Larry Ullman both designed audiophile home audio speaker cabs before moving into the bass cab enclosure business.

My day job has always been in and around the high-end audio (now video too) biz. I work on my ears! I know the Theta, Velodyne and ProAc people, and I used to import Arcam for the US back when it was A&R Cambridge. I personally always leaned towards UK gear, having been brought into the business by guys who showed me that Linn/Naim, the BBC and UK engineering were the Gospel truth. When those guys sink their hooks in to you, it's Praise Ivor and nothing less. I used to get a kick out of Mike Myers SNL skits where he kept repeating, "If it ain't Scottish, its S&%#!" But I did the comparisons, and it was mostly true.

There is something to be said of the "British Hi-Fi" sound. My Arcam/ProAc system sounds a good bit different from my home system, and in general, I like it better for an office setting. Never in the way, but lets you hear all the music. I see that you are a Creek dealer, eh? In their price niche, they are always a top contender.

When I heard Don at LDS was building custom, I asked him if he knew anything about this and would he be game to build one. I never got a response, so I guess he thought I was nuts. Maybe so! But after I try some of his designs, I may want to have him try to see what he can do with one of these concepts. What do you think?

I do not know the extent of Don's speaker design skills. At a minimum, I'd say he is comfortable desiging your standard, ported box, and does a good job of it. I can say that from what I saw, his carpentry skills are very developed, and it seems like he really is willing to give anything a go. I'd keep on him about the isobaric design. I am familiar with these designs and their advantages. It would be interesting to see someone implement this in a bass enclosure.

Later, Tom.

 

[macmrkt]

I figured you had to be into cables. Nice stuff. Do you do any extreme accessories or setups (as recommended by infamous writers like Enid Lumley or any other TAS extremists?) Did you ever try passive bi-amping the ProAc's?

What cabling do you use for your basses? I'm up to all M1000 Monster (new series).

By the way, I don't sell a/v anymore - I left retail a decade ago. Those companies listed are who I consult to. There's a full list of clients somewhere else on my site. (OK, I'll do an end-user job every now and then if it pays enough - gotta have money for my basses!)

If you had to design a small high-end bass cabinet of your dreams in theory, what would it be? Transmission line? Isobaric? Active?

 

[macmrkt]

I prefer the VL208. I also own an LDS 208 but it is 2way. Don't use it at all with upright, way too dark. I still prefer the VL208 and Acme B1. Always keeping an eye out but still haven't found anything better than those two for upright.

The LDS 208 I have is much better for electric bass as the darkness of it gives the slab a little more uumph, but that is the same issue that makes it to dark for my upright IMHO. Don is a terrific guy and builder so I'd be curious if a 3 way design actually cleared things up.

Thanks for the comments - I'll let you know how the 3way sounds versus the B1. I think the B1 is great...and as its unlikely that I'll ever see a VL208 (since they'll never be one available that I'll be fast enough to buy!), I'm wondering what Don can do.

 

[tombowlus]

I figured you had to be into cables. Nice stuff. Do you do any extreme accessories or setups (as recommended by infamous writers like Enid Lumley or any other TAS extremists?)

I do not really do anything for isolation/coupling, but I have gone moderately overboard on the AC side. I have two dedicated lines for my system (and one shared line for TV and VCR). The pre/source AC line is all 12 guage Belden wire. The power amp AC line is 9 guage Romex. I have some custom breakout boxes made using 9 and 12 guage Belden wire and Albert Porter's "Porter Port" duplexes (cryo'd custom Hubbels). I do have some PS Audio power cables, and every line has a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet on it (all retrofitted with Porter Ports, except for the high current UO, which already comes with a Power Port).

Did you ever try passive bi-amping the ProAc's?

No, but if I ever get a deal on an Arcam FMJ P25 I might.

What cabling do you use for your basses? I'm up to all M1000 Monster (new series).

Mostly custom cables using either Mogami or Canare cabling and Neutrik connectors.

If you had to design a small high-end bass cabinet of your dreams in theory, what would it be? Transmission line? Isobaric? Active?

That's hard to say. I haven't heard an isobaric design in a portable bass enclosure, but I have heard the magic of EA's transmission line, so I guess I would have to go with a well-designed transmission line configuration. I like three way designs, and this is probably what I'd do for the small, high end cab of my dreams. Wait a minute! It looks like EA beat me to the punch! I guess that all I would do would is make a slightly lighter VL-208. So far, it's still my dream cab.

 

[Rimas]

Im also an audiophile, but on a college budget. In case you guys didn't know, check out www.tnt-audio.com

great reviews, and great DIY recipes.. I built the Flexy stand, and it does wonders for my non wall mounted TT. Ive also built a variation of the speaker stands they have listed, which do a fairly good job supporting my fostex loaded vintage marantz speaker cabs..

 

[tombowlus]

FWIW, I just went up to Low Down Sound last night, adn I was able to hear a variety of their cabs. I brought along my VL-108 and VL-208 for reference. In addition to "LDS brand" cabs, they had several "Patterson" cabs, which are from our very own Ralf Patterson. Ralf and Don work together on all of these cabs. Don does the cabinet work, Ralf does the crossovers, and both can handle loading the cabs and covering them.

I was able to hear a 3-way 1x10, a neo 2x8, a 3x8 (the prototype), and a neo 2x15 (with two 6" drivers) from LDS and a 2x8 and 3x8 from Patterson. I also saw a certain LDS 3-way 1x8 that was waiting for a new 8" driver, and which was already accounted for...

The neo 2x8 was extremely light, but was definitely more midrange biased (and less low end) compared to the regular long-throw 8" equipped cabs. The 3-way 1x10 went very low, and really sounded great, but had an oh so slight gap in the midrange. Not coincidentally, these two cabs sounded incredible together! I suggested to Don that maybe he could build a 1x10 "sub" to go under his 3-way 1x8 (the 10" will just fit in this box), and he really thought that was a great idea. I think that this combination could be exceptionally good.

I had heard the prototype 3x8 before, and had commented that it needed just a bit more upper midrange to be a truly exceptional cab. Well, it still sounds very good, but when I tried Ralf's 3x8 (which uses two long-throw 8's and a coax 8), I was blown away. This cab sounds so good! It was very much in the same ballpark, tonally and frequency range-wise, as my VL-208. That alone is saying something! The EA did sound different, though. It's a bit hard to describe in words, but all in all, I'd say that it is just a bit more "polished" sounding. The different parts of the tonal spectrum are presented with a bit more individual definition, if that makes any sense, and the Patterson kind of throws them all at you in a bundle. But let me say, that outside of other EA cabs, this is the closest approximation to a VL-208 sound that I have heard. Quite an accomplishment! And when you consider the $325 asking price of the Patterson 3x8, it becomes a very attractive option!

But wait, it gets even better! I actually preferred the Patterson 2x8's. They used a Selenium horn, and I think the crossover points are different. The box configuration is also slightly different from the LDS 2x8's, with a diagonal arrangement (like an Epifani 2x10) as opposed to in-line, as Don makes them, but I doubt the speaker configuration makes the two 2x8 models sound very different from one another. At any rate, I felt that the Patterson 2x8's were just as full sounding as his 3x8 (possibly even a tad more full, though that may have been the different impedances), and I preferred the high end. Again, we are in the same ballpark as the VL-208, but with similar distinctions, and perhaps a more "zingy" high end.

In the end, there is still only one VL-208 (and VL-108), but I have to tell you, these cabs they are making up in Ferndale, MI are very, very good cabs, and a freakin' steal for the money! I was not able to bring my upright along, so I was only able to play electric bass through these cabs, so keep that in mind. Still, knowing how the EA's sound with upright and with electric, I am thinking that my observations would carry over to upright.

Now, my big question would be whether to get two Patterson-style 2x8's, or a 3-way 1x8 with a 1x10 "sub"...

 

[phlybass]

Hi TomB...

Thanks for the in-depth assessment... great info.

Your post brought up some questions.

First, any idea of the relative, actual "efficiency numbers", or perceived efficiency of the Patterson 2X8 or 3X8 cabinets to say, an EA Neo 2X10?

Second, what about the power handling capabilities?

Third, would a Focus 2R drive the Patterson cabinets to their potential?

Thanks in advance for your reply and all the great info you provide to our forum.


Regards, Alex (aka phlybass)

 

[tombowlus]

Hi TomB...

Thanks for the in-depth assessment... great info.

Your post brought up some questions.

First, any idea of the relative, actual "efficiency numbers", or perceived efficiency of the Patterson 2X8 or 3X8 cabinets to say, an EA Neo 2X10?

Second, what about the power handling capabilities?

Third, would a Focus 2R drive the Patterson cabinets to their potential?

Thanks in advance for your reply and all the great info you provide to our forum.


Regards, Alex (aka phlybass)

LDS does carry AI, and they had a Clarus on hand, but no Focus. They may have tried this, though, or may be able to try it for you they get a Focus in stock.

As for efficiency, I would doubt that their cabs are as efficient as the NL-210. Compared to my VL-208 (which is nowhere near as efficient as the NL-210), the EA was a tad louder than most of the cabs, but the Patterson 2x8 was close. Of course, it's a 4 ohm cab, and the VL-208 is an 8 ohm cab, so the real-world efficiency still probably favors the EA. Keep in mind, though, I was using a Walter Woods Ultra, so I had gobs of headroom. The LDS/Patterson cabs might respond better to lower powered amps than the VL cabs (which tend to like a lot of headroom to sound their best).

I think the power handling on their 2x8's is 350-400 watts, and the 3x8 is 500-600 watts, depending on which drivers they use. Either way, they can definitely take some power. I think a Focus would sound great with them. Just be sure to get two 8 ohm cabs, if you go for two cabs. The two Patterson 2x8's they had were both 4 ohm cabs.

 

[macmrkt]

Tom,
If I ever get rich, you're hired! How long was the drive to the shop for you?

With visions of cabinets floating in my brain the last few weeks (known as the "tombowlus" effect" in scientific circles), your report is very appreciated.

Here are my questions:
1) What does last night make you feel about NEO drivers in general?
2) My preferences are in the smallest, lightest but great sounding boxes I can get. My volume needs are low to moderate. If they are more, I'll double up the same cabinet. As you know, I'm really happy with my Acme B-1's. They easily delivered a better sound (more accurate and full, without being too sterile) in every way than the Acoustic Image combos or separate cabs, a variety of Edens, the CXL series EA's, and the PJB Briefcase (that's one from the LF Limited category aka Stereophile!) What I never tried was EA VL's (and we know where those all went), the Wizzy, or any Accugrooves ...the Tri110L being the smallest and the one for me. I'm thinking of having the EA and Accugroove shipped to me to try, but your expert opinion on these will be greatly appreciated. I realize you've given your thoughts on these before, but in light of your LDS experience, maybe you have new insights.
3) How does the 3-way 1x8 NEO potentially fit into this mix (a loaded question as neither of us have heard it directly.)
4) How big in your estimation, is the Patterson 2x8? Do they have a website?
Thanks!

 

[The Jazz Lawyer]

...Then I heard good things about Don at LDS. When I saw that 1x8 3-way photo, I had to get one....

Have you gotten your new cab yet? If so, how do you like it?

 

[macmrkt]

Not yet...have an e-mail into Don...it was supposed to be here a week ago. Seems like from what tombowlus says, it's waiting on a driver. Also, from what tom's demos were like yesterday, the NEO version that I'm getting may not be as good as the long throw setups. Don said I should really try the NEO and if I didn't like it, he's swap me for the long throw regular magnet verison. However, mine has a midrange added which changes the equation from what Tom heard, along with the fact that I'm DB only. I'll surely post my experiences as soon as it arrives.

 

[tombowlus]

Tom,
If I ever get rich, you're hired! How long was the drive to the shop for you?

With visions of cabinets floating in my brain the last few weeks (known as the "tombowlus" effect" in scientific circles), your report is very appreciated.

Here are my questions:
1) What does last night make you feel about NEO drivers in general?

Well, I have used neo drivers before (T-110UL, Accugroove cabs), and I think that they are lighter, and that some have a noticeable amount of upper midrange bloom (and perhaps less low end), while others really minimize this effect. Of the neo LDS 2x8 and the Patterson non-neo 2x8, I strongly preferred the Patterson, but I think that the neo 8 with a long-throw 10 would sound killer.

3) How does the 3-way 1x8 NEO potentially fit into this mix (a loaded question as neither of us have heard it directly.)

I expect it to have excellent midrange, and to be very well balanced down to, say 80 Hz, but maybe a little weak for my tastes below this (again, this is mere conjecture). This is why I think that a long-throw 1x10 in the same cab would make for a great companion cab to the neo 3-way 1x8 (and even for a non-neo).

4) How big in your estimation, is the Patterson 2x8? Do they have a website?
Thanks!

Patterson cabs really are LDS cabs. Don and Ralf work on them together. You can PM Ralf right here ("rpatter", I think). I really like Ralf's 2x8 configuration. They are slightly smaller than the Accugroove Tri 110 (which is a pretty big 1x10), but larger than an EA VL-110.

 

[tombowlus]

Not yet...have an e-mail into Don...it was supposed to be here a week ago. Seems like from what tombowlus says, it's waiting on a driver. Also, from what tom's demos were like yesterday, the NEO version that I'm getting may not be as good as the long throw setups. Don said I should really try the NEO and if I didn't like it, he's swap me for the long throw regular magnet verison. However, mine has a midrange added which changes the equation from what Tom heard, along with the fact that I'm DB only. I'll surely post my experiences as soon as it arrives.

Keep in mind, Don has heard these cabs, and I have not. But, it is nice to know that he will swap you drivers if you like. He is truly a class act, and a joy to talk to. The cab itself is really quite striking, and very well made. He showed it to me. The 8" driver has a spot on the voice coil, apparently, and he said that it sounds great at really low volumes, but you can hear it crap out when you push it at all.

One other thing to keep in mind is that I was using an active 5-string through a 1,200 watt Walter Woods. What I mean is, I was looking to hear all the lows a cab could give, and on upright, with less wattage, the difference between a neo cab and a non-neo cab is probably not as dramatic. Of course, in a cab that small, the weight savings from the neo is also not as noticeable.

Tom.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Holy crap you guys, my head is spinning! And I though that JOKERJUNKY was the most enthusiastic TBer when speaking about speaker cabs...Anyway, thanks for the reviews.

I'm going to ask a very selfish question here, since with two VL208's I'm all set in the 2x8 department for now:

Could you rate the 1x8 cabs (by that I mean any cab with a single 8" driver plus whatever smaller speakers are thrown in for balance) in order from favorite on down at this point? I only have one VL108, and I'd like another 1x8 cab to keep in my music room for rehearsals and as a backup for gigs where little reinforcement is needed. I'm thinking DB only at this point...

 

[Tom Baldwin]

Chris - have you ever tried an Acme B-1? This whole low volume scenario seems to present its own challenges (now that I have a not-so-low-volume rig that I'm happy with). I know someone who has one I could try out. The thing I find is in those situations, when I need just a little reinforcement, where I really need it is in the low end. Otherwise it sounds like you're playing through a little transistor radio speaker. I know, specs are just specs, but the B-1 is rated down to 41 Hz. Sure, it's inefficient at 90 db, but it's just for low volume, so that shouldn't matter. Plus the tradeoff is usually better accuracy for low efficiency. Your VL-108 only goes down to 58 Hz. What kind of low end do you get out of it? The Pub goes down to 38 Hz, and it definately sounds deeeep at low volume. Here's how sick I am - it crossed my mind to remove the power amp from the Pub, hook up a speakon or 1/4" jack, and drive it with the Focus....(just to save on the weight).

Here's another query - is it possible to get distortion from trying to play at too low a volume?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

The 108 has a sweet sounding low end. Like the 208, it gives a good balance of lows and mids at higher volumes while many cabs with larger drivers start to amplify the lows to an unnatural degree.

PUB - I had one for a minute (yours, maybe?), and it sounded great, but I had to use a hi pass filter to make it sound "balanced" and to increase the useable volume before distortion. I don't think you can get distorion at lower volumes without some severe gain-staging blunders, which are usually not the fault of the amp.

 

[Tom Baldwin]

The 108 has a sweet sounding low end. Like the 208, it gives a good balance of lows and mids at higher volumes while many cabs with larger drivers start to amplify the lows to an unnatural degree.

So much for specs. But I am talking about when the amp is barely on. So why not just play accoustic, you ask? Well, it's not about the volume. Accoustically I can enough volume, but it lacks that beefy bottom that you get form an amp. Splitting hairs, yes, but this is my affliction.

PUB - I had one for a minute (yours, maybe?), and it sounded great, but I had to use a hi pass filter to make it sound "balanced" and to increase the useable volume before distortion. I don't think you can get distorion at lower volumes without some severe gain-staging blunders, which are usually not the fault of the amp.

Not mine. But this is more reason fo me to try the Pub with the Focus and make use of the high pass. Do you always keep the master on the Focus at high noon? (Sorry for the derailment)

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

So much for specs. But I am talking about when the amp is barely on. So why not just play accoustic, you ask? Well, it's not about the volume. Accoustically I can enough volume, but it lacks that beefy bottom that you get form an amp. Splitting hairs, yes, but this is my affliction.

And mine. Be prepared for sarcasm from some - but not from me.

But this is more reason fo me to try the Pub with the Focus and make use of the high pass. Do you always keep the master on the Focus at high noon? (Sorry for the derailment)

Since the Focus only weighs 4 lbs, and since you are using it as a mixer/preamp anyway, why not just send the direct out into the PUB in? That way, you get the best of both worlds.

 

[Tom Baldwin]

Since the Focus only weighs 4 lbs, and since you are using it as a mixer/preamp anyway, why not just send the direct out into the PUB in? That way, you get the best of both worlds.

Just as soon as humanly possible