2 Types of bassists it seems....

[Sundogue]

Did you think I was talking about visual aesthetic? Beyond volume, there's a special vibe to having a whole mass of speakers working at once.

Full disclosure, 75% of the time, my rig is just a tube head into an Orange 1x15".

I'm well aware of what a whole mess of speakers working at once does.

There is a lot that goes into cab design and frankly older commercial cabs (and still most of them to this day) were not designed very well. Thus the need for large speakers (or a lot of smaller ones) in a lot of heavy cabs. It is unnecessary to achieve the same results today. Way too many advancements in speakers design itself and the type of cab designs there are that most commercial cab companies don't even offer, to even make a serious comparison to old, outdated designs.

I don't really care if anyone wants to haul around a bunch of big old cabs. More power to you (literally and figuratively). If it sounds good it is good. If it feels good to move it, then it is good. Only the player himself can determine if it's worth it. I'm just surprised that anyone actually wants to haul those big old tanks around when they don't have to, to get the same results.

I think a lot if it amounts to just feeling good knowing you got a ton (literally) of gear behind you. If that's what does the trick, by all means go for it. The commercial bass cab industry is counting on you!

 

[Jack]

If I rocked up to a gig with a rig like that the soundman would (at best) laugh at me.

I have a 750 watt head with either a 1x12" cab, a 2x12" or both. There are a few places round here I know I can count on the holy trinity of gigging, a competent soundman, a good PA and a stage monitor or two. In these places, I'll just take a bass and a little stompbox-sized preamp. So I guess I'm in both camps depending on the show.

 

[Lincoln]

If I rocked up to a gig with a rig like that the soundman would (at best) laugh at me.

I have a 750 watt head with either a 1x12" cab, a 2x12" or both. There are a few places round here I know I can count on the holy trinity of gigging, a competent soundman, a good PA and a stage monitor or two. In these places, I'll just take a bass and a little stompbox-sized preamp. So I guess I'm in both camps depending on the show.

Where does the drummer sit? In front of the rig? That's almost the size of most stages in Cleveland...unless you're opening for a national act at a venue that brings in acts...not a club that happens to provide live music...

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

I'm well aware of what a whole mess of speakers working at once does.

www.instantrimshot.com

There is a lot that goes into cab design and frankly older commercial cabs (and still most of them to this day) were not designed very well. Thus the need for large speakers (or a lot of smaller ones) in a lot of heavy cabs. It is unnecessary to achieve the same results today. Way too many advancements in speakers design itself and the type of cab designs there are that most commercial cab companies don't even offer, to even make a serious comparison to old, outdated designs.

Personally, I have yet to see the the 1x12" that can make my vision blur. Volume and air movement are two separate things, for better or worse.

 

[GaryLC]

+1 @ Sartori...,

Get some earplugs! Seriously. There are many old schoolers that have lost most or all of their hearing or developed tinnitus from having that extremely loud back line. Unless you're Beethoven (a genius) and can just hear the music in your head..., it ain't worth losing your hearing. If it hurts it's probably doing damage.

Okay, I'll get off my soap box now.

+1,000,000!!! I'm 56 years old, have been playing since I was about 14. Never wore plugs, have been in all manner of bands.... hard rock, cover bands, etc. I now have a pretty severe case of tinnitus, it's not painful, but the ringing is constant, everpresent, and is actually louder than many conversations i have with people. I'm still playing in two bands, one is a little jazz standards group that is just fine. I can get away with using a Fender Frontman 25 to rehearse, and that's witha keyboardist, myself and a full drum set. I'm also in a classic rock band, and I have to wear plugs when we rehearse or I can't sleep that night. And it's really making me think that as much as I love that music more....I don't want to be in a band where I have to wear earplugs at practice!
Your ears are important my friends! Take care of them...

 

[mrbassmanjazz]

I have a MB150 combo - I use for most rehearsals and gigs. I have a RB1001 115 Combo for when the guitar Player is too loud for the MB150 and it is only Vocal PA.
I bought a Hohner B2A as a handy rehearsal guitar (take to work and knock out a scale at lunch - they think I'm weird anyway). I now hardy play anything else!

I'm a big fan of the 1-trip load-in/out /QUOTE]

(?)

Me too! If I could only find a way of reducing the size of the "What if?" bag!.

 

[JimmyM]

Let me tell you what the "special vibe" to a wall of speakers is to the average gigging around town bass player. It's called sitting on top of your rig because there's no stage space.

that actually happened to me last week because of a really odd stage. but unless you have line of sight issues or a really odd stage, an svt really doesn't take up any more real estate on the stage than a 410.

It's called taking an hour to pack up after a gig in the wee hours of the morning.

20 minutes, 30 tops if my car is parked far away, and that's with having to pack up an upright bass as well. last week i did a gig where i was packed and on the road 15 minutes after the gig.

It's called fighting with the sound guy about your volume level for every gig.

never happens. i am a professional.

It's called having him turn you down in the house and your monitor.

never happens. big is not always about volume. it's about tone. my amp has a volume knob. besides, i hate bass in monitors, and if i ever hear it, i have them pull it out.

And it's called being ignored and unheard if one happens to be a bass player in a rock band...Unless you're on that magical short list of rock bass players anyone knows or cares about.

trust me, nobody ignores me. of course, it helps that i sing about 1/3 of the songs

Big speakers do not equal big cajones. And drunk head bangers or drunk clubbers or drunk jazz snobs don't care about your rig. They really don't.

i really don't care, to be quite honest. i bring what i bring for me and my guys alone, and if anyone else enjoys it, they're welcome to come along for the ride. but if they don't, that's ok, too, because i'm enjoying it quite well all by myself, and that translates to the audience as me having more fun, which makes for a much better show.

If you're lucky that one squirrely dude in the corner who's not been dancing but eyeballing you all night, may come up and gush over your speakers, because he's a bass player. But then he's usually mohlered up, too.

see my last point.

listen, at this point in my life i have only a few good svt years left. i wasted 10 of the last 11 years without one, and now i have a chance to get some more good svt time in, especially knowing that i own the very best svt rig ever made. it makes me feel good, it makes the band feel good, and because we all feel good, the audience feels good when we play. it's what you call a chain reaction.

i did the downsizing thing a couple years ago, and while it was plenty, i never got the level of satisfaction i get when playing my svt or my b-15 with two cabs. so i only downsize when absolutely necessary now.

not sure why it concerns you so much if others use a big rig since i really couldn't care less what you use, but since you put up your argument against it, i put up mine in favor. try not to judge what everyone else should do by your situation.

 

[Sundogue]

www.instantrimshot.com



Personally, I have yet to see the the 1x12" that can make my vision blur. Volume and air movement are two separate things, for better or worse.

I never said anything about a 112. I'd agree with you about that. Doesn't do it for me either.

But a 3015LF in the right cab goes down deeper and louder than most all commercial 18's and the magnet weighs a hefty 11 oz. Yeah, you read that right...less than one pound. Build a cab out of 1/2" ply loaded with a 3015LF and you saved yourself a couple hundred pounds from those old "monster" cabs of yore.

Volume is about moving air. And even a 3012LF in the right cab would get louder than you may even realize.

 

[rpsands]

While not really any 1x12s are going to make you bleed from your eyes, PA subs sure can

 

[Lincoln]

Let me tell you what the "special vibe" to a wall of speakers is to the average gigging around town bass player. It's called sitting on top of your rig because there's no stage space.

that actually happened to me last week because of a really odd stage. but unless you have line of sight issues or a really odd stage, an svt really doesn't take up any more real estate on the stage than a 410.

It's called taking an hour to pack up after a gig in the wee hours of the morning.

20 minutes, 30 tops if my car is parked far away, and that's with having to pack up an upright bass as well. last week i did a gig where i was packed and on the road 15 minutes after the gig.

It's called fighting with the sound guy about your volume level for every gig.

never happens. i am a professional.

It's called having him turn you down in the house and your monitor.

never happens. big is not always about volume. it's about tone. my amp has a volume knob. besides, i hate bass in monitors, and if i ever hear it, i have them pull it out.

And it's called being ignored and unheard if one happens to be a bass player in a rock band...Unless you're on that magical short list of rock bass players anyone knows or cares about.

trust me, nobody ignores me. of course, it helps that i sing about 1/3 of the songs

Big speakers do not equal big cajones. And drunk head bangers or drunk clubbers or drunk jazz snobs don't care about your rig. They really don't.

i really don't care, to be quite honest. i bring what i bring for me and my guys alone, and if anyone else enjoys it, they're welcome to come along for the ride. but if they don't, that's ok, too, because i'm enjoying it quite well all by myself, and that translates to the audience as me having more fun, which makes for a much better show.

If you're lucky that one squirrely dude in the corner who's not been dancing but eyeballing you all night, may come up and gush over your speakers, because he's a bass player. But then he's usually mohlered up, too.

see my last point.

listen, at this point in my life i have only a few good svt years left. i wasted 10 of the last 11 years without one, and now i have a chance to get some more good svt time in, especially knowing that i own the very best svt rig ever made. it makes me feel good, it makes the band feel good, and because we all feel good, the audience feels good when we play. it's what you call a chain reaction.

i did the downsizing thing a couple years ago, and while it was plenty, i never got the level of satisfaction i get when playing my svt or my b-15 with two cabs. so i only downsize when absolutely necessary now.

not sure why it concerns you so much if others use a big rig since i really couldn't care less what you use, but since you put up your argument against it, i put up mine in favor. try not to judge what everyone else should do by your situation.

1. an SVT and a 4x10 isn't a prob. An SVT an two or three 4x10s, an 8x10 or two, a rack with pre and tuner, pedal box....etc. etc. And I'm including the time it takes for the rest of the band to move around a person with that rig. I had an SWR 500 and a Goliath 4x10 and could be packed and off the stage in minutes. But that's not speaking for helping the rest of the band and the drummer get gear an PA's of the stage.

2. Soundguys aren't always very professional....know matter how much we smile and nod and knob tweek

3. Again Soundguys aren't always professional. Once they've got your stage rig down to barely audible you're dependent on a monitor ( which I can't stand and no one else in the band can stand either )

4. Singing lead or backup by definition brings anyone some attention. So learn to sing kids.

On a personal note I like SVT's I used to have one. I pushed it through a Trace Elliot 4x10. I only ever got the volume up to 1— it was that loud in a 5 piece band. At that time we were an all original band that had to take 45 minute gigs at bars with 4 bands on the bill. And it was just ridiculous to drag that much weight and that much power up on the stage for so short of time....

Everyone can argue their experiences one way or the other. Everyone can agree or disagree. Everyone, can and does make judgment calls everyday. Passing judgement on someone is to denigrate or make a personal attack on someone's character or integrity based on a difference of opinion or subjective truth. I didn't do that in my post at all.

And lastly, I couldn't care less about the size of rig you in particular happen to bring. You'll note my point is about the "special vibe" aesthetically that having a large rig brings to a gig not this person or that person's rig. I would interject this, though. Poll an audience after a gig and ask them if they enjoyed the show because of the size of the bass rig. I'd be shocked if anyone let alone the majority of the people said having a stage long bass rig made or broke their experience.

 

[JimmyM]

well of course it doesn't make or break a gig.

 

[rpsands]

Btw, my stuff is off stage in about 5 minutes and loaded in 10. Rawr. I usually wind up helping the drummer shlep his stuff, which is the down/upside of that.

I got a sweet cart from harbor freight and bungee cord everything to it, and out the door. Pretty amazing little piece of kit, and folds up to like 8" high.

 

[Korladis]

If I rocked up to a gig with a rig like that the soundman would (at best) laugh at me.

I have a 750 watt head with either a 1x12" cab, a 2x12" or both. There are a few places round here I know I can count on the holy trinity of gigging, a competent soundman, a good PA and a stage monitor or two. In these places, I'll just take a bass and a little stompbox-sized preamp. So I guess I'm in both camps depending on the show.

Have you heard Metal Matt's band MORS? They're kinda like Om. Just bass and drums. Really really loud. That's kinda the point.

 

[Lincoln]

Have you heard Metal Matt's band MORS? They're kinda like Om. Just bass and drums. Really really loud. That's kinda the point.

well...there's no accounting for sonic needs of the bands style... if it calls for that, then I guess you need it. Earplugs my friend, ear plugs...

 

[Korladis]

Then build a single 215 cab out of 1/2" ply loaded with 3015LF's and mids. Then build a whole freaking wall of fake cabs out of 1/4" ply for aesthetics.

Look I love the classic Ampeg SVT head and the 810 cab. I would love to own one again someday. But even if I had the 810 cab, I'd build a new cab out of 1/2" ply (properly braced) and it would sound the same, yet be lighter. And I'd probably use a power amp with a VT pedal instead of the tube amp. But that's me. God, how I hate 3/4" plywood.

There just is no reason for bass players to haul unnecessarily heavy gear anymore unless you are broke (buying used, outdated gear on the cheap) or have absolutely no carpentry skills.

What is it with the need to own these old, far too overweight cabs when you can get the exact same sound (and look if need be) going lighter? Is it some kind of macho, martyr, masochistic thing?

People like them. I like my tube head, too. So much so that I built a case for it. Out of plywood that seems to be at least 3/4 inch. So now the whole thing weighs 60 pounds instead of 40.

I was raised lifting heavy furniture and moving it around all the time. 5 minutes moving a cab around really isn't that big a deal if I like how it sounds.

 

[Korladis]

I thought this thread would be way more interesting as in:
2 kinds of bass players / ones that play way too many notes and ones that play just right

Gear shmear, use whatever makes you happy and let the others do the same
PS - I too fit in neither camp with a GK MB200 (for the light work), a TL606, a Berg 322 and either a LMII or SVT; how great is it to have so many quality options these days!

This is the amps forum. Why would you expect it to be about how many notes a bassist plays?

 

[Lincoln]

This is the amps forum. Why would you expect it to be about how many notes a bassist plays?

I think that's in the technique forum

 

[Korladis]

The thing about speaker design is that if a speaker can handle deep lows, then it won't be very good on the highs and visa versa. There is always a trade off.

The 3015LF only goes up to 1.5kHZ so using only that, you'd lose a lot of upper mids and highs. And before anyone says they play bass, not guitar and they don't need all that high end, consider that part of the reason you may feel the need to be so loud is that your "bass" rig lacks clarity. If you only use a 3015LF, you can turn it up as much as you want and still probably have a hard time hearing yourself against guitars.

Low end does not cut through at all. Mids do.

True that.

Bass has such a huge frequency range in its sound. Even when I'm going for a "thumpy" sound (which I do, every now and then, even if my usual sound is more mid-heavy and obnoxious) I like more than just the lows; the mids fatten up that sound and the highs help give it some personality.

 

[SteveC]

I fall into the first group, most of our gigs are smaller venue gigs. And they just don't require that kind of awe inspiring power. So bringing 1000 watts to an electric jazz trio gig is definitely over kill. Though, what makes the shuttle 6.0 that I just got so desirable is that adding another 1x12 to it gives me 600 watts of power if I ever need it. All in a one trip ONE ARM carrying situation.

I must confess, I got sick and tired of rolling my 4x10 around for these smaller gigs. And it was an 8ohm cab which means the SWR SM 500 I had required TWO 4x10's to get the max 700 watts of power out of them. Let's see 90lbs to get 250Watts or 37lbs to get 300 watts...it's a no-brainer if you commute or carpool with you band ( which I do )

Now, if I were a full time musician the caliber of say Richard Bona I could be tempted to want to get an Aguilar 750 and a set of Epifani 4x10's just because I'd have the means. But I still think the lighter is better approach is what I might take even in that situation. It's a whole lot easier to travel with your sound when it fits in an overhead compartment....

Yep. Shuttle 6.0-12T combo and extension cab. Covers everything. Anything more - it's called a PA guys. I love the "I can't play/rock/groove/whatever without my pants moving and the room shaking" thing, too.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

But a 3015LF in the right cab goes down deeper and louder than most all commercial 18's and the magnet weighs a hefty 11 oz. Yeah, you read that right...less than one pound. Build a cab out of 1/2" ply loaded with a 3015LF and you saved yourself a couple hundred pounds from those old "monster" cabs of yore.

Oh, I'm aware of the wonder of Eminence speakers in a good enclosure--that's what my Orange is, incidentally. A Kappa15 in a Electro Voice TL606 style box.

I brought up the 1x12' since another poster said he could get away with just that on stage. Different styles of music, I imagine, from what I'm usually doing. I mean, using a PA??