I run a blue line SVT through an Aquilar 8x10 most of the time. When I get the chance I use two 8x10s. I currently own three SVTs and four 8x10s. I don't know that I've ever owned a 200 watt head but have a Marshall Super Lead,Risson LTA 120,and Laney Klipp. The Risson keeps up with the SVT volume wise, almost, but not ass much ass. The closest amp as far as feel and volume on stage were my Sunn 2000S heads. Still lacking though. I've been wanting a Reeves 225 for a while but would want to be able to play through one for a bit before trying to get the cash for something that wouldn't hold up to the SVTs.
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200 vs 300 "tube watts"
- Thread starter BassOnTheSide
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Whaaaaaaaaa?
Please tell me how lower freqs can be at a higher rate without ceasing to be a lower freq. Higher rate would indicate a higher frequency. Semantics?
If a tree falls in the woods, and there are many people to hear it, and it didn't sound very loud, because it was a small tree and didn't make much noise, was it loud but nobody could tell it was?
Are you honestly trying to say that a 200 watt tube head is as loud as a 700 watt solid state GK RB700 head?
And to the last sentence...a 200 watt tube head is enough for every venue you could even play except for an arena?
I don't have a lot of tube amp experience, and they could very well appear to sound louder than a solid state watt, but these statements are VERY hard to believe.
Yeah. Pretty much. As I said, to my ears and my experience. Not saying it's fact. I've been playing my tube head for about a year and a half now. I use and gig it often. At venues and practice, it can get just as loud as my GK. I've never had to go higher than 10 o'clock or so on my GK, that's very loud. But I get around 9 o'clock or so on my Electric and it's just as loud.
Now when you get up in volume past 10 or 11 on the tube and noon on the GK, that's just ridiculous with my setup and what I use my amps for and what cab I use with them. I'd either blow the woofers or drown out the band. Tube watts and SS watts are not equal. Not to my ear. Ask around. You may find I'm somewhat accurate in my previous post.
I believe you. The science part is hard to believe. Are tube and solid state watts somehow calculated differently? Bizarre.
I suppose it was predictable that the thread would turn into another tube vs solid state argument, but oh well.... I have played tube heads most of my playing career, dallying occasionally into solid state. I agree with gregmon. Totally.
Yes, watts are definitely watts and 300 watts is less than 800 watts. But tubes just seem to be more euphonious as you drive them louder, there is a weight to the bottom end that is often lacking in solid state/class D heads that I have played - a fabulous giant Aguilar I once met in a backline excepted. IMO YMMV of course.
But to keep on topic, the OP did specify tube heads.
A Watt is a defined unit. Less available power means your speaker cone cannot be doing more work. That's physics. There is no adjustment to the laws of physics to get more energy ooyt of a particular type of 'Watt'. However, there is a psycoacoustic effect where odd or even harmonics are detected by the ears processed by the brain and appear to be different. In a base, the fundamental energy is very low down. It disperses in a more Omni directional way than higher tones. If a tube amp has appreciable quantities of upper harmonics, then these won't be wasted in the same way, and travel out towards the listener on the speaker axis. It isn't like turning the volume up. I suspect it's a bit like treating the typical bass cab of any kind as a floodlight with solid state drive. Using tubes adds a spotlight effect, and if you are in the beam, it's brighter. It's sounds louder. You like it or not, as per personal preference.
Only a dB meter will reveal loudness, and 300w tube amp doesn't move as much air as a 400w solid state, unless somebody lied in the measurement department. A Watt is a Watt. Wanting it to be magic and special is a pointless wish.
Don't forget too that tubes when running hard start to saturate, so you're also getting compression which isn't there on solid state. Maybe that also convinces you its louder, when it's not?
Only a dB meter will reveal loudness, and 300w tube amp doesn't move as much air as a 400w solid state, unless somebody lied in the measurement department. A Watt is a Watt. Wanting it to be magic and special is a pointless wish.
Don't forget too that tubes when running hard start to saturate, so you're also getting compression which isn't there on solid state. Maybe that also convinces you its louder, when it's not?
I pretty much never play clean, so a 180 watt tube head is fine for me. When I used my drummer's GK while my head was in the shop, I also always ran it overdriven.
A watt is a watt is a watt. The difference between a tube and an SS transfer function is the compression and harmonic distortion that tubes naturally impart. That transfer function is what makes the tube amp louder at the same wattage (volts x amperes). If you want to duplicate the transfer function of tubes with SS you can do it with the right signal processing. That's what TC does with its amps, and why they got caught overstating their actual power using what became known as 'TC watts'.
Yes they are computed differently.
There's dB that your ear hears. And watts your computer calculations.
To add to what you said, Neil's little amp is a Fender Deluxe. He uses other amps and cabs at the same time as well but this one is always up front in the mix.
It's a tweed amp with a 12" speaker, revision 5E3 from the late 50's. Rather than the standard 6V6GC power tubes which put out under 20W, they use 6L6GC tubes. This is a common mod in these amps, it changes the character of the tone and allows for a little more headroom. This particular amp has an amazing tone like none other. Years ago, Neil's amp tech used to buy up all the 5E3's they could find, trying to find one that sou ded as good. Word was out that if a shop had one, contact them and they'd get a good price.
In general, the 5E3 is kind of a one trick pony that, when cranked, does distorted very very well.
Dude, I don't know about that. Tube watts use the same mathematical equation as solid state watts. If you really want to do a comparison, you gotta eq them for tone equality and crank 'em, to take the varying pots out of the equation. I've had plenty of bass and audio equipment that got loud really quickly, but had very little increase past noon. When I crank my 200w tube through my 810, it's very loud. When I crank my 1001, it feels like a massive fan blowing and shakes the entire house (anyone remember the old Maxell cassette commercial?). In all honesty, I never crank the GK unless I'm showing it off.
Yeah there has been debate on the subject here for a while. And you'll always hear a watt is a watt. I believe it too. But I also know what my ears hear ya know.
Yeah I agree. As far the GK doing that. It's super clean and tight. But the volume levels are accurate as in my second post. I can't EQ the two amps the same because the Electric doesn't have anywhere near as much tone shaping as the GK does. I've never went past noon on the Electric. But I get what youre getting at. I wasn't trying to get into a tube vs SS watt thing. All I was saying was you could play most venues and gigs with a 200w tube head as opposed to a 300w. A 300w isn't what's NEEDED in most cases. 200w is usually just fine. Actually more than enough.
Fair enough. And, I agree with you on 200w being ample power. I've never felt like I didn't have enough.
Yeah for real. That's what I meant when I'm not totally sure if most of us would need to make a jump fro 200 to 300w in most cases.
Every bass amp manufacturer calculates watts in completely different ways. There are not standards for MI amps. There is no cooperation between manufacturers.
For a manufacturer that makes both Tube and Solid-State amps would be expected them to calculate watts the same for this own lines. It's the same simple formula. Yet their marketing will often hype "tube watts" - those amps sell for more $$$ and have a higher profit margin. You can get Solid State amps that are thousands of watts and weight a few points. Solid-State is what FOH, and high end recording studios use. They could use anything and yet they use Solid-State Solid-state power amps used in FOH accurately reproduce what's sent to them from the pre-amp. Pre-amp is where the tone is.
I do what get what you're saying. Really I do. But if you have an all tube head, SOME of the time comes from the power tubes too. That's why a hybrid head still can't match the tone of a full tube head. IMO.
The issue is always fudged. The only problem really is that the Watt (which IS a fixed and defined unit) is useless at denoting volume, and that is what (sorry) we're really talking about. If we were only talking about sine waves that we could easily measure and compare - but it's music, and we tweak and fiddle with it - squashing it, distorting it and generally it's as far from something we're in control of as you can get. Tube amps generally do musical things to the signal they amplify - which is really still distortion of the waveform coming in, to what goes out. Solid state amps tend to attempt to be truthful. For good or worse, depending on your viewpoint. Science labs have ultra linear amplifiers to do quantitive and qualitative measurements. The last thing somebody looking for 'character' wants. Indeed, lab work in tube days required amps to be tightly calibrated and only the most linear portion of their dynamic range used for critical stuff - and that often needed eq of a kind to make it more accurate.
We're now at the silly stage where PA amps try to be as pure and uncoloured as possible, and then the instrument versions have circuits to dirty it all up.
I don't subscribe to the tube movement at all - not because I don't like it, but because for my music, I want clean. I bought a Behringer bass amp when my favourite old one was being a bit sickly - and really liked it with my 8x10" cab. It's dirt cheap, lightweight and amazingly loud. In fact a couple of times I've had it turned up VERY loud for a gig and love what it sounds like. The last tube bass amp I owned was a 2nd hand vba400 that I never liked that much, and it always hummed, despite my best attempt to fix it. Must have been ten years ago or thereabouts. For me, I don't want tubes.
We're now at the silly stage where PA amps try to be as pure and uncoloured as possible, and then the instrument versions have circuits to dirty it all up.
I don't subscribe to the tube movement at all - not because I don't like it, but because for my music, I want clean. I bought a Behringer bass amp when my favourite old one was being a bit sickly - and really liked it with my 8x10" cab. It's dirt cheap, lightweight and amazingly loud. In fact a couple of times I've had it turned up VERY loud for a gig and love what it sounds like. The last tube bass amp I owned was a 2nd hand vba400 that I never liked that much, and it always hummed, despite my best attempt to fix it. Must have been ten years ago or thereabouts. For me, I don't want tubes.
