200 vs 300 "tube watts"

[eyeballkid]

I think partly it's that the 300 Pro is rated conservatively, while the AD200B is rated pretty generously.

You're absolutely right. My tech said the Orange puts out 165 watts before the standard distortion levels, 200 watts is something like 20% distortion on lower notes if i remember correctly.
He said that 300 pro is clean all the way up.

 

[jamro217]

There is more to the equation than a wattage rating. What kind of bass are you using, active or passive? Effects, compression or a preamp? Speaker cab up to snuff? I use a 300 watt solid state amp and a tube preamp and never had any problems filling a room. How much would that change if the 300 watts were tube instead of SS, who knows?

 

[bobyoung53]

One thing you guys need to understand is that the amount of power an amp puts out is instantaneous, it depends on how hard you hit the string and how low the note is among many variables. The only time an amp is putting out it's maximum power is when you really punch for ex the E string, other wise it's also cruising along unless you are really playing loud already. I use an SVT and cab and have rarely gotten it to distort. You want the watts for when you really punch it, a lot of people call it headroom. I use the SVT mainly because of it's sound but also because I know it's got the power (headroom) for almost any gig or situation, and if one cab won't do it two will. A guitar playing playing power chords will use almost all of the power available in an amp, a bass player won't unless he wants constant distortion. But yes if you are looking for distortion from an SVT (don't have experience with any other 300 watt tube amp) you will kill everyone in the room and probably get thrown off the stage, have the soundman come running etc. You could have a 200 watt and a 300 watt tube amp and they will put out the same volume all night until and if you really need the punch, then the 300 watt amp will stay cleaner louder. I have experience with a V4-B (100 watts) a Sunn 2000S (120 watts) and a Marshall Major (200 watts) the SVT walks all over both of them although I miss the Major (actually miss the V4-B too).

 

[Maple]

Actually it's a 1950s Fender Tweed Deluxe...about 15 watts.

I have a tweed deluxe. It's 15W but it is so damn loud! If you want good tube bread up, you have to play at wake-the-dead volumes.

 

[Doner Designs]

When comparing a low power tube amp to a high power SS amp, another thing to keep in mind is the law (I forget the name) that says it takes 10 times the power to double the loudness (or something along those lines). So a 100 watt SS amp may not sound very different from a 300 watt SS amp in a casual comparison.

 

[TMARK]

My experience: the AD200's 165 Watts is not enough clean volume with two Trace 15s for playing funk with git, keys, drums, conga, sax and trumpet.

The Super Bassman gets me there. In fact it's I don't ever run out of headroom. So does the Mesa D800 with a TecAmp s212.

 

[mpdd]

the d180 with two orange 15s gets me right where i need to be except for the rare occasion when my guitarist is using his vintage 410 ampeg tube combo, i'm not sure if the audience can hear me, but i know i can't hear myself on stage when he's using the speaker cranker or the fuzz machine with the ampeg

 

[okcrum]

The difference between 200 and 300 watts isn't much. Even if they are "tube watts".

The human ear is sensitive down to differences of about 1 dB. "Twice as loud" is 10 dB. A doubling of wattage only gets you 3dB more output, so a ratio of 1.5 is even less than that...1.76dB.

So if the ratings are accurate, and the ratio of power stays the same even well into the clipping range, you won't hear much of an improvement by going to 300 watts.

To put it another way, if I need more power I always go for at least 4x the wattage, for a 6dB increase. To get 10dB you need ten times the wattage.



Actually it's a 1950s Fender Tweed Deluxe...about 15 watts.

You can't directly compare SPL dB to amp power dB. 10x the amp power into 10x the original drivers will give you more like a 20 dB SPL boost. 10x the power into the original drivers, not nearly so much, as we all know.

It's a 10 dB increase in SPL that is perceived as twice as loud. It's a psychoacoustic thing.

 

[Bassmec]

Another thing that makes a difference in how loud clean a valve amp plays, apart from the efficiency of the cabs.
Is that some 200 watt 4xKT88 amps, use Ultra Linear output stages like the old Marshall Major and Simms Watts AP 200 Super.
Actually they stay clean noticeably louder than the SVT 300 into the same cab.
The UL low end feels stronger and tighter.
I always wanted a go with the Matamp 300 Ultra Linear Slave Amp that belonged to our Mr Foxen.

 

[maxschrek]

As mentioned repeatedly before, cab efficiency is the key. I have never needed more than the 100 tube watts provided by my Hiwatt DR103 through my 2x12 and 1x15 built by Swanson audio.

 

[40Hz]

Whenever I need more than 100 watts, I'll switch from a tube to a solid state head. A V4B is about the biggest tube amp I can see lugging around to gigs unless you have a road crew.

IMO tube amps are just too expensive and impractical to transport once you exceed 100 watts. And the pre-sound reinforcement days (when you actually did have to have a massively powered backline) are a thing of the past AFAIC.

YMMV.

 

[bobyoung53]

Another thing that makes a difference in how loud clean a valve amp plays, apart from the efficiency of the cabs.
Is that some 200 watt 4xKT88 amps, use Ultra Linear output stages like the old Marshall Major and Simms Watts AP 200 Super.
Actually they stay clean noticeably louder than the SVT 300 into the same cab.
The UL low end feels stronger and tighter.
I always wanted a go with the Matamp 300 Ultra Linear Slave Amp that belonged to our Mr Foxen.
View attachment 908178

I used to use a Marshall Major head for bass and yes they are loud but not as loud nor as clean and definitely don't have the punch of an SVT head, I still would like to have another one though as they are definitely cool amps. I sold mine for 150.00 bucks in 1976 haha!

 

[Mr. Foxen]

I always wanted a go with the Matamp 300 Ultra Linear Slave Amp that belonged to our Mr Foxen.

Current favourite UL amp is the STAK 230RMS, Fender styley front on 4 KT88 UL power section and oversized iron.

Link Removed

 

[Bassmec]

I used to use a Marshall Major head for bass and yes they are loud but not as loud nor as clean and definitely don't have the punch of an SVT head, I still would like to have another one though as they are definitely cool amps. I sold mine for 150.00 bucks in 1976 haha!

Was it biased properly and did you test it with the same cab. A lot of them got set up at 36 milliamperes like a Superbass rather than the factory stock 50 milliamperes which was very near red plating the GEC's, it made a huge difference. The trouble with the Major was the drake output transformer, it had some insulation in it that relied on masking tape.:-(
The Simms Watts AP 200 Super on the other hand had enormous transformers with very good insulation for the 671 odd volts they had on the plates.
This one belongs to talk bass member Boot soul.

Now that's a jolly big one missus.X

 

[Basshappi]

Oh my, those are pretty!

As others have pointed out the real difference between 200 and 300 watts in a tube amp is headroom (i.e. clean signal) moreso than volume.
In that wattage range if you need more volume add more speakers.

There are fewer bassplayers these days who have experienced playing at truly high volume and have not had the opportunity to really push an SVT with a single 810 and then with 2 810s. Too bad really, IMO it's an experience every bassplayer should have at least once.

 

[bobyoung53]

Was it biased properly and did you test it with the same cab. A lot of them got set up at 36 milliamperes like a Superbass rather than 50 which was very near red plating, it made a huge difference. The trouble with the Major was the drake output transformer, it had some insulation in it that relied on masking tape.:-(
The Simms Watts AP 200 Super on the other hand had enormous transformers with very good insulation for the 671 odd volts they had on the plates.
This one belongs to talk bass member Boot soul.
View attachment 908231
Now that's a jolly big one missus.X

No I used two Sunn 2000S cabs which had 2 JBL D-140's in each one with the Major which are very efficient and loud cabinets. It was really loud, it used to vibrate your stomach at about 20 feet out in front of them but the Major broke up gradually more like a guitar amp (which is what they are) than the SVT which are very clean until they are pushed to ungodly levels which translates into punch. I don't know what the Major was biased at as I was a young punk kid back then who knew nothing about amps except that you replaced a tube after it blew out or it blew up the amp. It may not have been running at maximum efficiency back then but I can still tell the SVT has a lot more b#lls. The SVT has much better tone controls than the Major for bass also. I'd still like another Major but not for the rate of approx 3000 bucks which seems to be the going rate for them here.

 

[blindrabbit]

I have felt this as well.
Traynor YBA200 - Great amp but underpowered.
Traynor YBA300 - An absolute beast.

I'll beg to differ ever so slightly on this one. They are both great amps, but quite different. The 300 is a total beast and has more headroom for cleaner tones. The 200 is easier to push into incredible dirty tones, but I've never felt it to be underpowered in any way. I run with quite a dirty sound, but I've never pushed my YBA-200-2 past about 5 on the gain and/or master volume, and I play with two guitarist who use half stacks as well as a heavy hitting drummer. I'd be happy with either amp, but I like the character of the 200-2 more.

 

[Razman]

Just some food for thought. Many of us, including myself, have experienced the "200W is not quite enough and 300W is more than I'll ever need" thing.

Just curious who has played a tube amp thats in the 200W range and found it to be not quite enough and moved up to a 300W (or more) tube amp.

It seems like there's some sort of "loud to really loud, and clean" barrier that's crossed by going from 200 to 300W (though tech specs might say this is a relatively small increase).

Not trying to argue this either way, but just curious about others that may have jumped over the "200W barrier" for any reason.

My primary experience is with a Mesa 400 and the less cabs you use then yes, you'll be limited with volume. This has been brought up along with all the other points (actual db increase vs. perceived, the headroom argument, etc.)

Here's JGR's good little write-up about how tube amps respond to the load a speaker presents and I found it interesting:

I think it's the "feel" component of a tube poweramp that is what is so appealing - with the lower damping of most tube power sections (compared to SS), you get a nice bass bump around the resonant frequency of the speaker in the box - a SS amp will lack bass in comparison which is why you may want to bump somewhere in the 75 to 80 Hz range to bring back that feel with a typical SS amp. In a tube power amp, the amplifier and speaker are very interactive, and the resonant peaks of the speaker are not critically damped like SS, and as such get amplified. This gives the pleasing qualities to the low and high end that we often associate with tube power. That's why a tube amp plus high-efficiency, low Xmax speakers works so well - the damping component helps compensate for the low end, and the higher efficiency gives you the desired output - like chocolate and peanut butter. It's also why the sealed box works so well with tube amps and is often preferred...

I have the good fortune of having multiple cab options at my church and found that with additional cabs I don't run out of steam. Even at our loudest gig, which was outdoors in a semi-trailer stage, I ran the Mesa at max clean volume and it was perfect.

Even through an 810 I have NEVER been able to run it at a volume level where I could get power tube saturation - it's just too loud and throws our stage balance way off, even against a loud drummer and two 100w full Marshall stacks.

Raz

 

[Tim1]

I've had the AD200B a couple times cos i loooove the tone but its just short on clean volume for me. So I keep going back to the 300 pro. Just picked up a BTA 400. WHOA NELLIE!

I know what you mean, but again it comes down to speaker sensitivity. I have found that matching the AD200 with a Bergantino NV215 or NV610 gives me a huge amount of clean headroom, similarly with the Barefaced Four 10 I have just acquired. Of course, YMMV and it does depend on how much clean loud you want - I play clean but like you I go to my Fender Super Bassman 300 for the big outdoor type gigs. Just love that Orange tone though, nothing quite matches it.

 

[shawshank72]

I'll beg to differ ever so slightly on this one. They are both great amps, but quite different. The 300 is a total beast and has more headroom for cleaner tones. The 200 is easier to push into incredible dirty tones, but I've never felt it to be underpowered in any way. I run with quite a dirty sound, but I've never pushed my YBA-200-2 past about 5 on the gain and/or master volume, and I play with two guitarist who use half stacks as well as a heavy hitting drummer. I'd be happy with either amp, but I like the character of the 200-2 more.

That's probably why my opinion is underpowered.
I couldn't stand the early breakup sound of the 200 thus ending up with not enough clean power.
I just felt when I've played the 300 it has clean tone and volume for days.