200 vs 300 "tube watts"

[Brother Goose]

Just some food for thought. Many of us, including myself, have experienced the "200W is not quite enough and 300W is more than I'll ever need" thing.

Just curious who has played a tube amp thats in the 200W range and found it to be not quite enough and moved up to a 300W (or more) tube amp.

It seems like there's some sort of "loud to really loud, and clean" barrier that's crossed by going from 200 to 300W (though tech specs might say this is a relatively small increase).

Not trying to argue this either way, but just curious about others that may have jumped over the "200W barrier" for any reason.

What kind of foundation are you looking to destroy? I'd say 200 watts will suffice for your average residential building.

300 is a must if you're objective is break up reinforced concrete or heavier post/beam style barns or industrial premises.

Have fun and remember your back brace, ear plugs, and hard hat!

 

[Turkeypills]

I have a few big/biggish tube rigs.

My Sunn 2000s is only rated 120w but due to the ultra linear design, and by most other manufacturers standards you could "call" it a 200w amp. It's not, but I'd put it up against any 200w amp out there in terms of volume.

I do notice a substantial difference, but I am more than tripling the wattage rating.

My big rig is a Peavey Classic 400 into a pair of greenboy dually cabs.

Efficient cabs and more muscle than a SoCal beach in the mid eighties.

As for two ohm stable... I built a series box to run my cabs at 8 ohms. Problem solved, and now I can run 4x215s for a 4 ohm load so that's cooler than what most people are having for dinner.

 

[Downunderwonder]

There is a point when a tube head is pushing more lower frequencies at a higher rate than a SS. At this point the tuber doesn't sound as loud as it really is. But the power and dB's are there. It's not always a loud presence, as much as a power presence.

I'm sure you like what you hear but lay off trying to describe it in technical terms because that is gibberish.

 

[gregmon79]

I went from a SVT to a AD200B and I haven't noticed a huge drop off but in my opinion it depends on the other musicians you're playing with.

This is a very good point. A lot of it will depend on this and a number of other things.

I myself use an all tube Electric. It's rated at 180w but I've read the power unit I have is in between 180 and 200. I dont think it much matters once you get up that high. I've never played a 300w tube head either so take this for what it's worth. But I run my amp into a GK Neo 410 and I've never needed more that what I have. The amount of clean power I can get out of that amp is huge. When I first got it, it astonished me at how much of a difference tube to SS watts sounded. I was used to my GK 1001rb II. The Electric matches it on every level except tone shaping. Which isnt bad at all on the Electric side. But I dont normally get much above 9 oclock on the volume dial and at that point it's LOUD. Plus I use effects so I push the tubes quite hard. And I still get clean headroom.

So in short, unless you're going to be playing arenas, I seriously doubt you'd need any more than a 200w tube head. IMO/IME.

 

[FingerDub]

200 watts will make your ears wiggle. 300 watts will make them bleed. I have zero problems with headroom with my 250 watt Mesa Prodigy.

Just wondering why people never say something like this regarding solid state amps.

 

[Slevage]

I mostly play clean ( tone hammer or fender preamp when I want dirt)-

200 tube watts is not enough for me. Owned a Sunn Model T in the 70's to early 80's---- moved to a GK 800 and really loved the increase in head room.

Now I have high powerd stuff with switching power supplies--- no more tubes for me at any power level.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Well it's simple, really, they're not smoking TUBE watts! (Why people don't say things like that ^^^)

 

[dfoehr]

I run two tube rigs: an Aguilar DB359 (200 watts) and an Aguilar DB680/DB728 (400 watts). The DB359 is enough for most gigs. I only use the DB680/DB728 for large gigs with large stages and are usually outside. All the gigs I play PA systems so I am not using the amps to provide sound out in front of the stage.

 

[Korladis]

I mostly play clean ( tone hammer or fender preamp when I want dirt)-

200 tube watts is not enough for me. Owned a Sunn Model T in the 70's to early 80's---- moved to a GK 800 and really loved the increase in head room.

Now I have high powerd stuff with switching power supplies--- no more tubes for me at any power level.

The Model T is 150 watts, not 200.

 

[Moosehead1966]

I like dirt in my tone. Three piece blues/rock and I got plenty of sonic space to play. That said, my Fender 100T is plenty for any gig I've played. Dirty snot-nosed tone with DI out the back of amp post power section. Plenty of head-room.

Marc

 

[Brother Goose]

I have a few big/biggish tube rigs.

My Sunn 2000s is only rated 120w but due to the ultra linear design, and by most other manufacturers standards you could "call" it a 200w amp. It's not, but I'd put it up against any 200w amp out there in terms of volume.

I do notice a substantial difference, but I am more than tripling the wattage rating.

My big rig is a Peavey Classic 400 into a pair of greenboy dually cabs.

Efficient cabs and more muscle than a SoCal beach in the mid eighties.

As for two ohm stable... I built a series box to run my cabs at 8 ohms. Problem solved, and now I can run 4x215s for a 4 ohm load so that's cooler than what most people are having for dinner.

View attachment 908434

Wow. That's a dump truck of funk (or whatever flavor you choose) right there!

These kind of threads make we want to get back into olympic lifts and go buy a pickup truck!

 

[Turkeypills]

Wow. That's a dump truck of funk (or whatever flavor you choose) right there!

These kind of threads make we want to get back into olympic lifts and go buy a pickup truck!

The duallies aren't to bad to lift at all. Plus, I think I can fit my whole rig in my charger but I haven't tried yet.

The CL400... No way around that weight. Big iron is big iron.

 

[Tim1]

I mostly play clean ( tone hammer or fender preamp when I want dirt)-

200 tube watts is not enough for me. Owned a Sunn Model T in the 70's to early 80's---- moved to a GK 800 and really loved the increase in head room.

Now I have high powerd stuff with switching power supplies--- no more tubes for me at any power level.

Don't want to get into a tube vs solid state thing. I know watts are watts. I too play clean but there is a sense of weight and power in a big tube head that I simply have never felt with high powered solid state/switching amps. Naturally YMMV and don't want to stir up the old argument....just couldn't let this one go unanswered....

 

[Brother Goose]

The duallies aren't to bad to lift at all. Plus, I think I can fit my whole rig in my charger but I haven't tried yet.

The CL400... No way around that weight. Big iron is big iron.

Greenboy cabs are simply incredible in their sound-weight ratio! I'm continuously elated with the sound of my meager 12/6 cube.

I have a good buddy with a CL400 who just happened to have a bad back (jumping out of airplanes in Army) and have schlepped that beast on his behalf.

I'm a farmer and I can assure that a CL400 is twice the "tube pounds" of a struggling bull calf, dead tree, or similarly weighted farm object.

Forget "dead weight" --- "tube weight" is whole other story!

(I do aspire to acquire another lead-sled power amp as a stay-home or stay-in-the-car-as-a-backup means of moving air)

 

[Johns Bass]

I still have my DB359 but don't drag it out much these days - just too darned heavy & I really don't need to. The Aguilar is plenty loud enough and because the power supply is so massive there was no clipping even at 11. Rarely got that high anyway. Mostly ran it thru 2 Bergantino's (EX112and HT112). If you play anywhere really good sized they're gonna pump it through the house PA anyway and playing outside was never a problem even without going through the sound system. How a 300 watt could help you (especially with tube power) I don't know. I kinda doubt it would no matter what brand you use. Maybe if you had a bad cab and needed more push but that is a speaker issue.

As far as as the DB goes - a great tone but it really is heavy (get a road crew). Aguilar rates it at 50#. I never weighed it but more like 50 kilo's to me. If I did it over I'd have gotten a separate preamp/power amp. Lighter and if anything dies it's more likely to be in the amp but mine was bullet proof and no issues with reliability. 200 watts was pretty conservative IMHO, seemed like it was louder than a tube SVT (300 watts).
The couple of times that I was going to DI it the sound guys just mic'd it instead. Said the DI was too hot. Maybe just mine but Pickles (or anyone else with one) can say if they have had the same issue. I did have Groove Tubes on the front end.

 

[Brother Goose]

I still have my DB359 but don't drag it out much these days - just too darned heavy & I really don't need to. The Aguilar is plenty loud enough and because the power supply is so massive there was no clipping even at 11. Rarely got that high anyway. Mostly ran it thru 2 Bergantino's (EX112and HT112). If you play anywhere really good sized they're gonna pump it through the house PA anyway and playing outside was never a problem even without going through the sound system. How a 300 watt could help you (especially with tube power) I don't know. I kinda doubt it would no matter what brand you use. Maybe if you had a bad cab and needed more push but that is a speaker issue.

As far as as the DB goes - a great tone but it really is heavy (get a road crew). Aguilar rates it at 50#. I never weighed it but more like 50 kilo's to me. If I did it over I'd have gotten a separate preamp/power amp. Lighter and if anything dies it's more likely to be in the amp but mine was bullet proof and no issues with reliability. 200 watts was pretty conservative IMHO, seemed like it was louder than a tube SVT (300 watts).
The couple of times that I was going to DI it the sound guys just mic'd it instead. Said the DI was too hot. Maybe just mine but Pickles (or anyone else with one) can say if they have had the same issue. I did have Groove Tubes on the front end.

I covet the tube preamps from the era of Aguilar. particularly the single rack space unit. I've heard the DB359 in person with an MTD 535 and VERY capable bassist (Poogie Bell band, I believe) and was VERY impressed.

 

[Slevage]

The Model T is 150 watts, not 200.

Thanks for the clarification - no wonder why the move to the GK 800 was such an improvement to mu head room-- always played it clean in the 80's,
.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

I currently have four all-tube amps:

Ampeg SVT-II (non-pro) - 300 watts
Mesa 400+ - approximately 280 watts
Mesa Buster - 200 watts
Divided by 13 TBL200 - 200 watts

The SVT and 400+ have no problem delivering lots of volume while staying clean, especially with an efficient and/or large cabinet. The SVT is overall cleaner than the 400+, but that is largely due to differences in the preamp sections. The next time I retube the SVT, I'd like to try swapping out the 6550s for KT88s just to see if there's a difference in headroom.

I tell people that the Divided by 13 can do loud and it can do clean, but it really can't do both at the same time. Outside of rehearsal situations, I only use it with PA support to keep it running in the black. It won't slam the back of the with clean volume without PA support the way the SVT can. But I think that has more to do with how the gain is structured in the preamp in the Divided by 13. I generally run that amp with the master volume wide open and then adjust to the room using the volume (gain). It stays clean until about 1 o'clock on the volume dial. On the other hand, the Buster stays very clean through both the master and gain knobs until they are close to being maxed. With that said, pound for pound, the Buster is noticeably not as loud as its 400+ cousin. Those are just my unscientific experiences.

I also had an Eden E300T, which is rated at 320 watts. It was definitely not as loud as the SVT or 400+, especially in terms of clean volume. However, there's been some discussions that while the 6 KT88s in the Eden produce over 300 watts, the output transformer may not actually be putting out advertised 320 watts.

 

[deeptubes]

That's probably why my opinion is underpowered.
I couldn't stand the early breakup sound of the 200 thus ending up with not enough clean power.
I just felt when I've played the 300 it has clean tone and volume for days.

I didn't like the early breakup either. I swapped the pre AX's for AT's, and now it starts breaking up around 1:30. I set the gain at 1 and, to date, haven't had any lack of power issues. Since I acquired it in Jan, I've only powered up my beloved GK 1001 RB-II to do an A/B.

 

[Johns Bass]

I covet the tube preamps from the era of Aguilar. particularly the single rack space unit. I've heard the DB359 in person with an MTD 535 and VERY capable bassist (Poogie Bell band, I believe) and was VERY impressed.

SVT was Allen Woody's normal rig but I did see him with the Mule using a DB359. I don't know how often or if that was just easier for where they were (Seattle) but a huge sound.