210 cabs for metal

[el murdoque]

Not being a metal player myself, I'm always on the outside looking in. But it seems to me that metal is an extreme genre, where more = more, and over the top is the ideal. So given the extreme volume and power required to do it right, how could a single 2x10, or even a pair of 2x10s even begin to cut it? A good 8x10 or 4x12 with a good, high-powered head - like a Mesa Boogie Titan V12 or a Gallien Krueger 2001RB - would seem to be the minimum necessary to play in the game.

MM

I'd say, as always, it depends on the others in the band. Sure, when you're up against a bongo and acoustic guitar, 8x10 is always overkill, no matter how hard the bongo player hits.
Metal is more prone to being played at high volume levels. The guitar player might want to get saturation from the powertubes and cranks his amp and there are not too many drummers in amateur metal bands that are able to play a fast, aggressive style without hitting hard. Also, IMO the bass in metal can benefit or suffer from the placement in the room. When i walk around during rehearsal in my rockband, there are places in the room where the bass is really loud and boomy and other places where it is completely drowned out by the other instruments. I like an amp that is able to compensate for this without breaking a sweat. The harder the guitar's distortion gets, the more i crave for a clean sound to cut through. 412 and 500W does this for me.
On most gigs i can easily do with 212 and not even turn the master beyond noon. I bring the second cab anyway and leave it in the car if the bass is loud enough.

 

[cfsporn]

D standard tuning

Check out the TC K212 if you like an old school sound, GK Neo 212 for a more modern one.

 

[Mystic Michael]

Also, IMO the bass in metal can benefit or suffer from the placement in the room. When i walk around during rehearsal in my rockband, there are places in the room where the bass is really loud and boomy and other places where it is completely drowned out by the other instruments. I like an amp that is able to compensate for this without breaking a sweat.

In addition to being a cab placement issue, this sounds like a cab dispersion issue, i.e. how evenly does the cab throw sound, irrespective of its location in the room? If so, using a more powerful amp is unlikely to fix it. The bass might become less drowned out in the dead zone(s), but will be even more boomy in the hot spots.

MM

 

[Bofink]

Check out the TC K212 if you like an old school sound, GK Neo 212 for a more modern one.

Have you tried the K212? Not many reviews out there as it is so new.

The GK price is pretty steep for my budget, but if I find an used I'll definitely consider it

 

[M.J.F.]

You could always build your own cabs, using Emience drivers.They have new drivers out now that are capable of double the average power rating capacity.I believe these are rated at 600 watts each, with massive peak power.If you play metal, you play loud.Most 210 cabs owned-Avatar, Eden, ect, are fine for approaching a loud limit, but, tend to distort quickly.I play funk-jazz fus
ion, and just replaced my Eden drivers with BP 102s, to add more headroom, and save the mint Eden's.Yes they sound different, but acceptable.Much improved deep bass, and even being ineffecient, they sound louder.

 

[Bofink]

Found these Ashdown Rootmaster cabs, showcased at NAMM 2014
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Really cheap cabs, the 212 costs 280 € here in Europe.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Ime a cheaply made cab always disappoints. Ashdown have been selling rubbish for years. Maybe the latest is improved but I wouldn't bet on it. Warwick budget line have never impressed me either.

Functionally, the sound difference between tall stacked small vs single large box is all in the dispersion.

You can get Fane drivers from Thommann at decent prices and your cold climate birch plywood is ideal for DIY.

 

[Bofink]

Ime a cheaply made cab always disappoints. Ashdown have been selling rubbish for years. Maybe the latest is improved but I wouldn't bet on it. Warwick budget line have never impressed me either.

Functionally, the sound difference between tall stacked small vs single large box is all in the dispersion.

You can get Fane drivers from Thommann at decent prices and your cold climate birch plywood is ideal for DIY.

How tricky is it to make DIY cabs? The wiring and such

 

[Downunderwonder]

How tricky is it DIY cabs wiring and such

Measure twice, cut once. Use a builder's square. YouTube teaches solder skills.

 

[Bofink]

Measure twice, cut once. Use a builder's square. YouTube teaches solder skills.

Any powerful 12" speakers you can recommend?

 

[iualum]

Any powerful 12" speakers you can recommend?

Powerful? Sure.

For cabs with no dedicated midrange driver (use high frequency/tweeter or not, you decide). Eminence KappaLite 3012HO is, imho, the best full-range on the market today. Others to consider...Faital Pro 12PR300 & Eminence DeltaLite 2512.

Eminence KappaLite 3012HO speakers - Eminence KappaLite 3012HO 12" neodymium mid-bass speaker. Eminence KappaLite 3012HO lightweight neodymium speakers.

Faital Pro 12PR300 12" Mid-bass Speakers - Faital Pro 12PR300 mid-bass speaker and
bass 12" speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro
12PR300 600 watt 12" high efficiency of 99dB SPL woofer for all high power
mid-bass and bass applications. Faital Pro 12PR300

Eminence Delta Lite II 2512 neodymium speakers - Eminence Delta Lite II 2512 12" neodymium speaker. Eminence Delta Lite II 2512 lightweight neodymium speakers.

For cabs with a dedicated mid (with or without a high frequency/tweeter). Eminence KappaLite 3012LF. Best 12" LF available today, again, imho.

Eminence KappaLite 3012LF speakers - Eminence KappaLite 3012LF 12" neodymium speaker. Eminence KappaLite 3012LF lightweight neodymium speakers.

You were talking about 210s initially. Now 12s. Why not strongly consider 15s? They're the best bang for the buck going.

For cabs with no mid speaker. Eminence KappaLite 3015 (non-LF). Or Faital Pro 15PR400. Best 2 full-range offerings today. I like the 3015 better, although more seem to like the 15PR400 a bit more. Another excellent choice is the Eminence DeltaLite 2515.

Eminence Kappa Lite 3015 Speakers - Eminence Kappa Lite-3015
lightweight neodymium woofer. The Eminence Kappa Lite-3015 is a 15" 8 ohm
lightweight speaker with extended Xmax. The Eminence Kappa Lite-3015 15"
speakers are rated at 450 watts RMS. Em

Faital Pro 15PR400 Speakers - Faital Pro 15PR400 bass guitar and PA
speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 15PR400 800 watt
high efficiency of 100dB SPL woofer for all mid-bass and bass
applications. Faital Pro 15PR400 sp

Eminence Delta Lite II 2515 neodymium speakers - Eminence Delta Lite II 2515 15" speaker. Eminence Delta Lite II 2515 lightweight neodymium speakers.

For cabs with a mid. Eminence KappaLite 3015LF.

Eminence Kappa Lite 3015LF Speakers - Eminence Kappa Lite 3015LF
lightweight neodymium woofer. The Eminence Kappa Lite 3015LF is a 15 inch 8 ohm
lightweight speaker with extended Xmax. The Eminence Kappa Lite 3015LF 15inch
speakers are rated at 450 watts RMS. Em

 

[Bofink]

Thanks for the information!

For cabs with no dedicated midrange driver

What exactly does this mean?

You were talking about 210s initially. Now 12s.

People seem to prefer them over the 210, only needing one somewhat compact cab would be a plus. I also fell in love with the Barefaced cabs mentioned

Why not strongly consider 15s? They're the best bang for the buck going

I know that you should measure driver sizes, but don't 15" usually sound more "boomy"?


Should the cab (if 2x12) be 4ohm or 8ohm?

Prior to your post I was looking at some drivers and I saw these Eminence Delta 12A drivers.

Eminence Delta 12A speaker. The Eminence Delta 12A is a 12" 8 ohm speaker. Delta-12A is a 400 watt RMS 12" woofer.

It seems to have somewhat similar response curve as the KappaLite and Delta Lite, though they aren't neodymium drivers.

Anything else than weight that sets the neodymium drivers apart from other drivers?

Thanks!

 

[cfsporn]

Thanks for the information!



What exactly does this mean?

That means that the cab in question doesn't have a specialized driver for the frequencies above ~800Hz.

People seem to prefer them over the 210, only needing one somewhat compact cab would be a plus. I also fell in love with the Barefaced cabs mentioned



I know that you should measure driver sizes, but don't 15" usually sound more "boomy"?

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

Should the cab (if 2x12) be 4ohm or 8ohm?

I would recommend the 8 ohm. Expandability is your friend. However, if your amp can do 2 ohms, then go for the 4 ohm.

Prior to your post I was looking at some drivers and I saw these Eminence Delta 12A drivers.

Eminence Delta 12A speaker. The Eminence Delta 12A is a 12" 8 ohm speaker. Delta-12A is a 400 watt RMS 12" woofer.

It seems to have somewhat similar response curve as the KappaLite and Delta Lite, though they aren't neodymium drivers.

Anything else than weight that sets the neodymium drivers apart from other drivers?

Thanks!

Not really. However, since Neo drivers are a premium product it may stand to reason that they are better designed than their ceramic counterpart. I have no proof of this at all, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[Argassab]

@Bofink

I had an eminence delta 12a diy 212 before but sold it. Now I have the same but 2 112s in a cheap beat up PA cab no tweeter. I had used the 112 in an outdoor small crowd, full band though electronic drums. All my frequencies were covered since it is up to 5khz. Master @noon though we were playing alternative on that occasion. I had used my then 212 in a pool party with no PA. Just my experience.

 

[Bofink]

@Bofink

I had an eminence delta 12a diy 212 before but sold it. Now I have the same but 2 112s in a cheap beat up PA cab no tweeter. I had used the 112 in an outdoor small crowd, full band though electronic drums. All my frequencies were covered since it is up to 5khz. Master @noon though we were playing alternative on that occasion. I had used my then 212 in a pool party with no PA. Just my experience.

Do you like the tone? Would you recommend them?

 

[Argassab]

Do you like the tone? Would you recommend them?

I like the tone and would definitely recommend them but so they say "YMMV". The delta 12a is a midbass driver. It was and still is my only option because it is what is available locally. My then 212 was my only cab then and was also used in my then rock/metal(not extreme obviously) band.

When things get easy I am planning to make the 12s that I have now into a 2 112s with tweeter. The cabs they are in now are quite beat up, mdfs getting powdery.

 

[Bofink]

I like the tone and would definitely recommend them but so they say "YMMV". The delta 12a is a midbass driver. It was and still is my only option because it is what is available locally. My then 212 was my only cab then and was also used in my then rock/metal(not extreme obviously) band.

When things get easy I am planning to make the 12s that I have now into a 2 112s with tweeter. The cabs they are in now a quite beat up, mdfs getting powdery.

Cool, I'll definitely consider them, thanks for the info!

 

[Downunderwonder]

Any powerful 12" speakers you can recommend?

The Faital are supposed to be some humdingers.

Many TB'ers pay no regard to dispersion. This is how consistent the sound is across the listening area. While I love the tone of my vintage 2x15, it drops away badly to the sides, the other side of the stage gets pure woof.

The width of the speaker(s) determines the zone of genuine tone achieveable without PA support. The 3way cabs mentioned throw sound incredibly evenly as they use extra small ( narrow ) speakers for mids and highs.

The relatively uncoloured tone of 3way cabs isn't everyone's cup of tea but it has another advantage. Your preamp tone can go DI to the PA with far better odds of being faithfully represented, in comparison to a traditional bass cab colouring your stage sound only.

Good luck.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

In addition to being a cab placement issue, this sounds like a cab dispersion issue, i.e. how evenly does the cab throw sound, irrespective of its location in the room? If so, using a more powerful amp is unlikely to fix it.

This makes sense to me. Look at how PA tops are designed; uniform coverage across the audience area is a high priority. No the coverage isn't perfect, but it's better than most bass cabs. But there are bass cabs that do just about as well.

Many TB'ers pay no regard to dispersion. This is how consistent the sound is across the listening area. While I love the tone of my vintage 2x15, it drops away badly to the sides, the other side of the stage gets pure woof.

Being an audience member rather than a musician, I can tell you that it's really disappointing to see the bass player's fingers flying and hear only indistinct mud because the overtones that I need aren't getting to me. In fact when that happened repeatedly when I'd go to small clubs in New Orleans years ago, I made a mental note that if I ever decided to build bass cabs, dispersion is what I would pay attention to. Giving credit where credit's due, greenboy did it before me, and Andy Lewis of Acme before him, and nowadays there's a bunch of people building well thought-out wide-dispersion cabs (Roger Baer, Mike Arnopol, Alex Claber, to name just a few).

You mentioned your fondness for the tone of your 215, and how that tone drops away to the sides. I'm working on a way to address on that.