3Leaf Audio Club - Episode 2

[PWolverine]

Have to say I slept through this drop, as it was 4:00am here, but in general for some of these posts.

 

[ahbass2500]

I think PayPal when setup is just as fast as Apple Pay. IMHO Apple Pay should be re-enabled.
He needs a proper test where customers know what methods to use. The first run Apple Pay won, simply because people were not prepared with their PayPal setup to do things quickly. Now that most customers are aware how the purchasing works, I don't see why Apple Pay shouldn't be put back in.

Not sure I agree. Apple Pay on my MacBook Pro with fingerprint reader is typically faster than PayPal. Even with my PayPal account logged in. I click buy with Apple Pay, scan my fingerprint, and I am done in seconds. In most cases, Apple Pay has processed payment before the PayPal page would even be loaded.

I do find Apple Pay to be a little slower when I use it from my iPhone or iPad (Face ID verification). That one might be more comparable to PayPal times with appropriate PayPal settings.

 

[letsgethandsome]

Not sure I agree. Apple Pay on my MacBook Pro with fingerprint reader is typically faster than PayPal. Even with my PayPal account logged in. I click buy with Apple Pay, scan my fingerprint, and I am done in seconds. In most cases, Apple Pay has processed payment before the PayPal page would even be loaded.

I do find Apple Pay to be a little slower when I use it from my iPhone or iPad (Face ID verification). That one might be more comparable to PayPal times with appropriate PayPal settings.

I feel like this is a silly reason to disable Apple Pay though. I have no dog in this fight but who cares if it’s faster? Survival of the fittest. We’re supposed to be ok with being forced to bundle with a preamp but Apple Pay is unfair? SMH.

 

[ahbass2500]

I feel like this is a silly reason to disable Apple Pay though. I have no dog in this fight but who cares if it’s faster? Survival of the fittest. We’re supposed to be ok with being forced to bundle with a preamp but Apple Pay is unfair? SMH.

Agree. If it were my business, I would allow Apple Pay and PayPal as long as there was not any additional cost to me of doing it (so assuming they have comparable fee structures). The only thing that would cause me to disable one is if it was more expensive to use (either through fees or frequency of issues with the service). Clearly not my business to run though.

 

[PWolverine]

Not sure I agree. Apple Pay on my MacBook Pro with fingerprint reader is typically faster than PayPal. Even with my PayPal account logged in. I click buy with Apple Pay, scan my fingerprint, and I am done in seconds. In most cases, Apple Pay has processed payment before the PayPal page would even be loaded.

I do find Apple Pay to be a little slower when I use it from my iPhone or iPad (Face ID verification). That one might be more comparable to PayPal times with appropriate PayPal settings.

So basically, the debate is over seconds? Maybe a few seconds difference depending on a range of factors? IMHO that makes things equal. Being in Australia I have more hops on the internet to get to the 3leaf site, and get responses back to my computer. So either method will take longer than someone in the USA. There are variables everywhere. But from a transaction standpoint, I think they are roughly the same.

I would like to see both Apple Pay and PayPal enabled now that customers know what to expect, and really see the numbers of who got what. Even those will be skewed as not everyone has Apple Pay, or PayPal for that matter.

Probably the fairest way to do things is disable both and make everyone enter all their credit card details manually. . Make it a totally even playing field. But I'm sure then you would get people complaining that they don't have a card to use or some such thing. I'm sure from Spencer's point of view, you can never win, someone will always be unhappy.

 

[ahbass2500]

So basically, the debate is over seconds? Maybe a few seconds difference depending on a range of factors? IMHO that makes things equal. Being in Australia I have more hops on the internet to get to the 3leaf site, and get responses back to my computer. So either method will take longer than someone in the USA. There are variables everywhere. But from a transaction standpoint, I think they are roughly the same.

Agree with enabling Apple Pay.

Ultimately, I think the biggest variable is how he is treating international orders (ability to add on for future drops). Seems to be a desire for fairness (whatever that is), but then a practice that gives a significant advantage to a large subset of orders. Not an option for me since I am in the US.

I landed a Doom 2 as a new to 3leaf customer a few months back. At this point I am not interested in buying anything else. Too many quality builders out there for me to spend my time trying to keep up with changing drop order, drop timing, available quantities, questionable comments, and arbitrary buying requirements. I can be fine with a few of those, but they just keep piling on with 3leaf. May even sell the Doom 2 if I can find another fuzz that I like.

 

[labeledbass]

So what I've learned the past few days,

I'm never selling my 3leaf again.. doubt anything new is coming out anyway

 

[ericplaysbass]

Still waiting for Spencer's friend to come in here and apologize for his actions like "I know him he's not ACTUALLY a bad person".

I mean, it was an eye-roller to me too. So I didn't buy one. Plenty of other octave pedals out there. I just can't imagine thinking anything other than "lol, ok" and going about my day. I mean, he still sold out, so it worked. (shrug)

Man you're so cool obviously not caring about a business scamming its customer base. Thanks for letting us all know!

 

[Erithon]

So what I've learned the past few days,

I'm never selling my 3leaf again.. doubt anything new is coming out

I suspect the same thing. And props to Spencer for going out with a bang if so: 900 pedals, 9 new color schemes... that's a fun way to end things. But... why not say this is a swan song if so? It's not like the drops can get any more insane.

 

[PWolverine]

Ultimately, I think the biggest variable is how he is treating international orders (ability to add on for future drops). Seems to be a desire for fairness (whatever that is), but then a practice that gives a significant advantage to a large subset of orders. Not an option for me since I am in the US.

I don't know if I agree, and i'm in Australia so there's bias up front here. . But the notion came about after the low amount of international orders that got through in the first drop. So it really isn't any advantage to a large subset of users, it seems going by what Spencer has mentioned, it wasn't a large number of international orders that got through. Combined that with $50 or so in shipping, plus possibly any other customs and local charges, then also take into consideration currency conversions and bank fees - it does make shipping quite expensive in the end.

But the other side of that is living outside the USA you realise shipping is often expensive, it is just a reality you can't escape (funnily enough sometimes sending things the other way from Australia to the USA is even more expensive, go figure). I have ordered things off Ebay and other places where the shipping is more than the cost of the actual product (Ie: got a Primus comic book for $20 and shipping was $32.75 on top of that to Australia, plus other local fees - not a heavy or large item).

So he is really trying to cater for the smaller subset of customers that have higher costs in the end. I don't think that is really that unfair, however, if the percentages of customers in the USA vs International was different, then it would be a totally different situation.

 

[ahbass2500]

I don't know if I agree, and i'm in Australia so there's bias up front here. . But the notion came about after the low amount of international orders that got through in the first drop. So it really isn't any advantage to a large subset of users, it seems going by what Spencer has mentioned, it wasn't a large number of international orders that got through. Combined that with $50 or so in shipping, plus possibly any other customs and local charges, then also take into consideration currency conversions and bank fees - it does make shipping quite expensive in the end.

But the other side of that is living outside the USA you realise shipping is often expensive, it is just a reality you can't escape (funnily enough sometimes sending things the other way from Australia to the USA is even more expensive, go figure). I have ordered things off Ebay and other places where the shipping is more than the cost of the actual product (Ie: got a Primus comic book for $20 and shipping was $32.75 on top of that to Australia, plus other local fees - not a heavy or large item).

So he is really trying to cater for the smaller subset of customers that have higher costs in the end. I don't think that is really that unfair, however, if the percentages of customers in the USA vs International was different, then it would be a totally different situation.

50 of 100 Octabvres were reserved for current or future international orders (see 3leaf homepage for source of this number). 50% Seems like a pretty high percentage to me.

As far as import fees/shipping that is part of buying a product internationally. I am currently waiting for a few JDM products for my car. Paid crazy shipping (car parts are big). Wanted them enough that I do not expect special treatment due to having paid more.

 

[silky smoove]

Still waiting for Spencer's friend to come in here and apologize for his actions like "I know him he's not ACTUALLY a bad person".

Not sure if this is targeting me, but I fall into this category, so I'll take the bait. He's definitely not a bad person. You might not like his business decisions, but they're just that: His. If you don't like it there are other pedal manufacturers.

What this thread has taught me:

• Using Apple Pay was a bad idea and it should be disabled.
• Disabling Apple Pay was a bad idea and it should be enabled.
• Charging more for pedals is a bad idea.
• Charging less for pedals is a bad idea.
• Bundling with a product as justification to raise the price is a bad idea.
• Doing an action, the opposite of that action, or anything in between empowers scalpers which is a bad idea.
• These pedals are super desirable.
• These pedals aren't actually super desirable it's just hype.
• If you are Spencer you can choose any path forward, but it's guaranteed that someone will disagree with that path.

I'm still perfectly happy with my Octabvre Mini and my Proton V4 and will be using them at a gig on Saturday where I'll be playing with a drummer that is in bands with both me and Spencer. That's good enough for me. How Spencer chooses to run his business is also just fine with me. As has been stated, there are tons of other manufacturers who offer different things through different means. Your choices are not limited. Vote with your wallet. It's far more effective, although perhaps less cathartic than venting about it on TB.

 

[PWolverine]

50 of 100 Octabvres were reserved for current or future international orders (see 3leaf homepage for source of this number). 50% Seems like a pretty high percentage to me.

So your objection is to half being put aside THIS time, not the fact that it was well under 20% of successful orders that were placed were sold internationally on the previous two drops. The actual number of international sales is low in general. One drop, some are being saved, what happens next drop is anyones idea - maybe this is the only time this happens, and it is back to being perhaps anywhere between 5-15 out of a hundred going overseas - I don't recall it being more then 15 from the previous "blog" posts on his website, but those entries are removed and I can't recall specifically and hunting through the forum is a pain. .

 

[Erithon]

50 of 100 Octabvres were reserved for current or future international orders (see 3leaf homepage for source of this number). 50% Seems like a pretty high percentage to me.

Best to think of it as 50 of 300. There are two more drops coming. So ~16.5%. Spencer's math checks out.

I'll take the bait.

It's the internet: never take the bait
On a serious note, I think it's unacceptable to insult Spencer as a person and I don't like that some posts here have done so. I do, however, think his business practices are fair game for critique.

 

[ahbass2500]

So your objection is to half being put aside THIS time

Yes. Half is a pretty large number to set aside. As I have said before though his business to run as he wants. Just feels like giving one group an add on option and not another is a pretty huge difference in treatment. If he is not managing it correctly, the number reserved will just keep growing as more international buyers get in on one drop and opt for the next two. 15 a few rounds ago (assuming that is correct) has already grown to 50.

My money will be going elsewhere at this point. 3leaf will still sell out and will not miss me as a customer. My personal sanity will improve from not having to deal with all the hoops just to try out a pedal.

 

[PWolverine]

Yes. Half is a pretty large number to set aside. As I have said before though his business to run as he wants. Just feels like giving one group an add on option and not another is a pretty huge difference in treatment. If he is not managing it correctly, the number reserved will just keep growing as more international buyers get in on one drop and opt for the next two. 15 a few rounds ago (assuming that is correct) has already grown to 50.

However, as pointed out above by Erithon, it really is 50 out of 300 at this stage. But even still, previous drops have put it at anywhere below 15 so far.

Going by my quick search of TalkBass for the previous announcements, the Doom 2 drop mentioned:

I got fewer international orders than normal - perhaps due to the extra time of entering an international address. I feel bad about this because the purpose of the 11pm 2nd wave was to accommodate Europe/Asia/Austrialia time zones.

Then for the Proton Drop it specifically mentioned:

This is an edition of 100. I sent #1 to Mike
from PHISH and 15 have been reserved by
international customers from last month's DOOM 2 release.

So 15 out of 100 went to International orders. 15%. I don't believe we know exactly how many international orders got through in the proton drop.

Either way, according to Spencer he usually gets more international orders. If the numbers are really low, and by any account at this stage, going off what has been posted, they are quite low. I don't see the issue.

 

[silky smoove]

It's the internet: never take the bait

Truly good advice that I follow 99% of the time. In my younger days (I’m now 41) I used to always take the bait and would invariably spend too much time bickering online. I’ve learned from my mistakes… most of the time

 

[PWolverine]

Yes. Half is a pretty large number to set aside.

Sorry the edit button isn't appearing on my post, but just wanted to add this in from his web site that I just noticed:

This is an edition of 100, but only 50 will be available for sale. The remaining 50 are reserved for current and future international order add-ons

So 50 are being reserved from this lot, but also within that 50 will be future international OCTABVRE orders. So that could also mean future drops all 100 will go to people with a USA mailing address, whilst the internationals will still dip into this initial 50 for however long. So very possibly, out of 300 released OCTABVRE pedals, 50 will go outside the USA.

 

[WG Plum]

Truly good advice that I follow 99% of the time. In my younger days (I’m now 41) I used to always take the bait and would invariably spend too much time bickering online. I’ve learned from my mistakes… most of the time

Haven't felt any chum in the water, just varying opinions. This being a discussion forum, seems a natural place to discuss what's been happening at 3Leaf. At this point, Spencer is in a bit of an impossible position for sure, but from what I've seen of his communications in the past few months, he really is not helping himself. I really think he should take the Teenage Engineering course and jack up his prices, take the inevitable blowback, and then enjoy his position in the market. Avoiding terms like Chinesium and complainers will help a good deal too.

But I don't run a business, and I have no skin the game. It's just an interesting little phenomenon.

 

[MisticoRitualista]

Been out for a few weeks, heard there's some drama with 3leaf, anyone care to give me a synopses?