Mebbe not, but it remains the shadiest thing i have ever seen here.
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3Leaf Audio Club - Episode 2
- Thread starter fivestringgecko
- Start date
Now obviously 3 Leaf as a whole is not large enough to even be a blip on the FTC's radar here, but when you insert the tied product (the useless preamp) with the tying product (the Octabvre) into their sentence regarding violating antitrust laws, it lines up perfectly.
To those dismissing this whole thing as "you can think what you want", "he can sell his things how he pleases," and "all I learned is that there is no right move" a la this post 3Leaf Audio Club - Episode 2 is a lazy cop-out of a response misdirecting people from the obviously scummy things happening. There's nothing more to say at this point so we're all just circling in a pool of negativity.
Buy it or don't, doesn't matter. It's just a pedal I know. But I think standing up for business owners purposefully misdirecting and insulting their customer base is ridiculous and there are plenty of alternative companies to consider at this point: Broughton, Emma Electronic, MXR, etc.
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I think it's clear: we need Teddy Roosevelt to take action!
What's the problem? No one is pressuring anyone to buy his products. If you don't like the deal just buy something else, simple. If you have to have his products then that's what the buy in is... Again simple..
My post was neither lazy nor a cop-out. The only thing I objectively disagreed with was the assertion that Spencer is a bad person. If you don’t know him you can’t make that assessment. Everything else was my opinion and a recounting of what I’ve observed behaviorally in this thread. If expressing opinion is a lazy cop-out then TB might as well be shut down as expression of opinion is 99% of its content.
Conversely, pointing at someone’s post and dismissing it because it disagrees with your opinion is actually a cop-out and lazy.
The example you give depicts a totally different situation since there are competitors, and the drug maker had a monopoly on a vital treatment (hence the coercion).
There is no anti-trust issue with 3 Leafs bundles. Especially considering the slim supply...
Pedals are not as vital as a medicine, we can pass.
The real issue has been that many customers here feel excluded from the deal considering the price increase.
Considering the time it took for the 50 units to sell, it is also hard to claim customers were generally unhappy about the bundles ...
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Lowendtech
Happily trending in my own peculiar direction.
The problem is he pulled this stunt less than 24 hours before a release that hundreds of loyal customers had waited two months for, THAT is the problem. He was counting on panicked impulse buying, and to his credit, he got it. It remains an indefensible move.
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A valid counterpoint, but the keep in mind that was only an explanatory example. The text above (the actual definition of "tying") is far more generalizing. The key language is "If the seller offering the tied products has sufficient market power in the 'tying product,' these arrangements can violate anti-trust laws."
Now in regard to the suboctave pedal market does 3 Leaf Audio have sufficient market power? No. In regard to the Octabvre MKIII market.? Yes. So it really comes down to how the market is defined and that's something only the FTC can decide. (I suspect they'd decide that it's not possible to have a monopoly on one's own unique product so no antitrust laws have been violated.)
But that's not really @ericplaysbass's point, as I understand it. There is no doubt that 3 Leaf Audio engaged in "tying the sale of two products." It's not a bundle because consumers had no option to buy each product outside of the tied sale. Eric's point is that this is considered a problematic--and sometimes illegal--practice and to insist otherwise is without basis.
Did I miss something? Most, if not all, criticism in this thread has not concerned the price; it has targeted the tied sale: being forced to buy a product for which they have no desire or need.
A market of a product could be defined as a market of substitutes, an other item that does the same thing. The Octabvre is an octaver. Any other octaver is a substitute. No other octaver maker is harmed because 3 Leaf sold 50 octaver with a preamp. It makes no sense to me. That's quite the opposite, that makes acquiring the 3 Leaf octavers harder since they're much more expensive than the competitor's.
Additionally, the example depicted 2 goods/services : A) the medicine (for which the drug maker has a monopoly) B) the blood monitoring service.
The issue arises with competitors of service B that see their service sold with a medicine that consumers cannot pass on.
A perfect analogy would thus compare service B with the preamp. People need A and buys A + B. So the issue would arise with preamp makers. Again, are preamp makers harmed because 50 preamps were sold in a bundle ? What's 50 units at industrial levels ..
Note that I am not defending anyone here. Simply questioning the legal approach to this question that appears to make no sense.
Then if paying $550 is not an issue, consider the Octabvre is $550 and you get a free preamp, or email Spencer and ask not to have a preamp in the bundle.
If a producer is free to charge whatever they want for a product/service, but is not free to bundle items together, then they just have to rise the price... Except in the latter example, you don't get a secondary item to recoup some cash. That's a far worse option to me.
I don't know.. Have you ever read through some of the Darkglass thread?...
This is what I said in the passage you quoted: the suboctave pedal market is bigger than the Octabvre MKIII and I do not think the FTC would consider 3 Leaf Audio as violating any antitrust laws.
I don't think it's productive to focus on the example. That's one specific instance and cannot be expected to apply to all situations. As I said before, the key language is the text above the example.
This has already been discussed. I don't think we need to do so again. My point was you asserted the criticism revolved around the price, but the posts in this thread have focused on the tied sale and the communication (last minute change, "addendum to complainers," etc.).
Oof that email came off as being very smug. Business practices aside - his tone annoys the crap out of me.
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It’s such a shame that we’ve had pages of talk about this. I understand why there is so much debate but it’s still a shame. During COVID it looked like we may never see any more Octabvres and this year should see 300, which still feels amazing (as does seeing Iron Ether, Cog and others come back from tough times). Hopefully if people still want one of the next 200 there will be a chance.
For what it’s worth, I really like my Anima too, and I hope those who did pick one up (or do in the classifieds soon) like theirs as well.
For what it’s worth, I really like my Anima too, and I hope those who did pick one up (or do in the classifieds soon) like theirs as well.
Speaking of the Anima, I really want to hear a Red one on a Jazz !
Oh I get it, yeah you can't make people buy what you want, you can try but....
Haha thinking of adding something unique to your 3 Leaf Audio board? That's a fun idea!
absolutely brotha. i was thinking of either enclosing it or easier to mount on another active bass. sorry i had to delete my comment as i didnt want to derail the topics. thank you for the response bro. Cheers!
