4 String bridge for F#BEA

[GOX42]

back in 96/97 I tried to order a bass from Mike Dolan (maybe not order but calling to see if I could get one made) that was tuned F#,b,e,a and at the time he seemed concerned that I could even get strings with a large enough gauge to have a low F#.....U always wonder what would've been had I followed through on that thought.

 

[walterw]

Don't give me anything about wanting to go so deep, i know its just thunder and not musical tones, thats what i want. I wanna shake the damn ground and cause an earthquake

trouble is, you don't really get "thunder". you just get a bunch of harmonics and string noise, as the bass is just too short to get any fundamental to come out.

it's like trying to put bass strings on a regular guitar. no matter how big the strings or how you EQ the amp, it just won't have bottom like a real bass.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

no matter how big the strings or how you EQ the amp,

it just won't have bottom like a real bass.

Who told you that?

 

[greenboy]

With Hipshot type B (cheaper at Carvin) I've used the following: Warwick .175, SIT/Conklin .165, Labella .150, Labella prototype (never released) .185, Knuckle Guitar Works Circle K prototype .175 (should be available soon).

Best on 34" scale for me were the Circle K .175 prototype and the Labella .185 prototype.

 

[Ric5]

What do you mean it won't fit?

Link Removed


I'm just sayin....





Seriously, :::subscribed::: b/c I think this topic is going to start coming up more and more often as larger strings become available.

Yes just drill out the holes bigger ... I have done it many times to get a low B to fit properly ...

I use power tools on my basses all the time ...

 

[ianmatth]

I was thinking about trying to tune my Fernandes Gravity 5 Deluxe to E0A0D1A1C2, which would not work with the BadAss V bridge it currently has, and would require switching to something like a Hipshot A or drilling the hole. The thing is I'd go with a .185 for E0, and I don't know if the ball end is that much bigger, not to mention a typical ball end on a typical B string, so I'd be worried about screwing up my bridge by drilling the hole wider. BTW Jeff, I need to send you an E-mail about the latest modifications on that 4004L 4-2-5.

 

[walterw]

it's like trying to put bass strings on a regular guitar. no matter how big the strings or how you EQ the amp, it just won't have bottom like a real bass.

Who told you that?

years of experience with lunkheaded metal kids who want to tune their guitars lower and lower, and think that just putting on bigger and bigger strings will get them there.

past a certain point the note is just too low for the scale length, and no matter how big a string they try to put on there, it still sounds weak, twangy, and unfocused compared to an actual bass playing the same note. you get less and less fundamental, and more and more harmonics the lower you go.

in fact, past a certain point bigger strings make it worse, as the string just gets too stiff for its length (due to being so thick), and the harmonics just get even further out of tune with the (barely audible) fundamental.

translating this principle to basses, we all know how it's not easy to get a low B to sound as good as the other strings on 34" basses. it's easier on extra-long scale basses, but even so, builders have to really focus on getting that B to behave, as it's really "too low" of a pitch for a bass guitar. once you go another string down from that, all bets are off.

i've played not many, but a few nice 7-strings from the likes of roscoe, and even at 35", the F# is just a novelty noisemaker.

my real point is just that people seem to think you can put bigger and bigger strings on a given instrument and tune it lower and lower ad infinitum, when in fact once you get out of the natural range of the instrument, you get diminishing returns in the form of less and less fundamental and more and more bad harmonics.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

years of experience with lunkheaded metal kids who want to tune their guitars lower and lower, and think that just putting on bigger and bigger strings will get them there.

past a certain point the note is just too low for the scale length, and no matter how big a string they try to put on there, it still sounds weak, twangy, and unfocused compared to an actual bass playing the same note. you get less and less fundamental, and more and more harmonics the lower you go.

in fact, past a certain point bigger strings make it worse, as the string just gets too stiff for its length (due to being so thick), and the harmonics just get even further out of tune with the (barely audible) fundamental.

translating this principle to basses, we all know how it's not easy to get a low B to sound as good as the other strings on 34" basses. it's easier on extra-long scale basses, but even so, builders have to really focus on getting that B to behave, as it's really "too low" of a pitch for a bass guitar. once you go another string down from that, all bets are off.

i've played not many, but a few nice 7-strings from the likes of roscoe, and even at 35", the F# is just a novelty noisemaker.

my real point is just that people seem to think you can put bigger and bigger strings on a given instrument and tune it lower and lower ad infinitum, when in fact once you get out of the natural range of the instrument, you get diminishing returns in the form of less and less fundamental and more and more bad harmonics.

With all due respect pretty much all of this goes right out the window with a well constructed bass.


My main Subcontra bass is fretless and it's 34" scale and every one that hears it always comment on how clear and even it sounds.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

back in 96/97 I tried to order a bass from Mike Dolan (maybe not order but calling to see if I could get one made) that was tuned F#,b,e,a and at the time he seemed concerned that I could even get strings with a large enough gauge to have a low F#.....U always wonder what would've been had I followed through on that thought.

in 90 and 91 i was using a warwick thumb 6 i bought from pj rubal (now a spector rep) tuned to low f#, b,e,a,d,g. and sometimes low g, using a 145 gage ken smith for the lowest string.. he thought i was nuts...
no issue at the bridge being taper core, and the screw head adjust a nut was easy to file and get adjusted correctly.
it sounded excellent... massive, and clear. it did take a lighter touch on the lows...
i have dat tapes and analog recordings, they also sound clear and defined. i will have to see if i can find something to post....

 

[D.A.R.K.]

found one!
not a great performance, but a good live demo. wish i had the tracks separate to isolate, but i only have master reel to reel tapes.
matches the other strings in tone, imho..
there are four pieces here:
http://soundcloud.com/d-a-r-k/tracks
so we're not crazy. back ot now....
you might benefit from a quick release style bridge and taper core strings for your 4 needs, maybe also the adjust-a nut as well to get the best action out of each string separately too... this was a standard production bass (albeit a nice one) and pups off the shelf

 

[walterw]

My main Subcontra bass is fretless and it's 34" scale and every one that hears it always comment on how clear and even it sounds.

"subcontra"? does that mean the low F#?

i guess i'm more referring to guys who think they can put .170s on their squier jazz basses and get remotely useful low F#s.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

"subcontra"? does that mean the low F#?

It consist of Low C# F# B E.

 

[davec]

I have to say up until a few years ago I would have completely lined up with Walter on this. I think of korn (please don't turn a perfectly good thread into a Fieldy bash session) the bass is so tuned down it becomes a strictly percussion instrument. It no longer has melodic tone (IMO) however, the big difference is "Well constructed instrument"
Have seen Jauqo play the Subcontra live recently, I have to say my vision was limited. I did not expect it to sound well live, It sound great on Jauqo's cd, and amazing live. If you look at keyboards, synths and audio equipment we are going lower. Think about the low B, Twenty years ago I remember bass player magazine having an article on 5'ers and being amazed that we were starting to see "good" (not great) 5's for under $500.00 and a few great 5's for under 1k. Here we are now and string mfgs got it down, and you can pickup a amazing well made active 5 for less

 

[greenboy]

Still, bass construction and materials being equivalent, when string pitches go increasingly lower then longer scale length becomes better at producing a passive/pre-electronics tonality with better harmonic balance.

Thus Novax and Dingwall and Knuckle, which give lower-pitched strings an advantage.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Who here actually plays a bass tuned F# B E A live?

 

[davec]

ok .... well that leaves Jauqo and .....(crickets)......

 

[walterw]

"subcontra"? does that mean the low F#?

It consist of Low C# F# B E.

good lawd!

I have to say up until a few years ago I would have completely lined up with Walter on this.

Have seen Jauqo play the Subcontra live recently, I have to say my vision was limited. I did not expect it to sound well live, It sound great on Jauqo's cd, and amazing live.

wow, interesting. (and some quick youtubing confirms that jauqo is indeed a bad b**ch, though searching "subcontra" yielded nothing but videos of guys playing 10 foot tall bassoons )

i suppose the path of improvement has to be in the strings themselves,as manufacturers figure out how to make a string that's heavier, but still just as flexible, so it can function at the low frequencies with such a (comparatively) short vibrating length.

if you've ever played one of those ashbory basses, which gets a fat low E out of an 18" length of silicone string, i guess that's the idea. i can imagine one of those with like a 25" scale getting a low C# all day long. the silicone strings are not heavier, but they're vastly more flexible than regular bass strings.

still, we're hearing (and the string and the amp are producing) very little fundamental down there. it's all just harmonics that our brains are extrapolating the fundamental from.

i learned right here (from folks who created frequency readings over time of bass notes) that even a regular low E has rather little of the 41Hz fundamental after the initial attack, and mostly just produces the 82Hz octave.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Walter,if you're interested in hearing what my sub contra bass sounds like in a recorded band context.


Here are some sound bites.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[davec]

I want to find a cheap Ashbory so bad its not even funny

 

[D.A.R.K.]

Who here actually plays a bass tuned F# B E A live?

thanks to some very generous support, inspiration and wisdom,
i will now be gigging live with an f# again. although it doesn't stop at a... (f#,b,e,a,d,g).
a huge thanks to all involved....