410 vs 215 dispersion

[JimmyM]

Use a 1x15 as a pedestal.

Build a pretty box out of 1/4" plywood to set behind you on stage, then hide a vertical array of 15's with horns and a couple of 2x18 subs behind a curtain.

I'm sure that will sound just lovely

 

[greasyogre]

The average 410 goes as low or lower than the average 115 and is noticeable louder.

That was not my experience at a local festival this weekend. They had just bought a Mesa Big Block V12 and a matching 4x10 for the festival. I figured I'd save my back and leave my rig at the practice space this time. I've had bad experiences with this in the past, but I had originaly heard they were going to have an Ampeg SVT 8x10 rig. The Mesa rig farted out before I even started to crank the juice. Fortunately, the stage monitoring situation was excellent and it was a non-issue.

So a 215 will usually get buried by an 810 as well.

We'll see when I build my 2x Killomax 15 cabinet.

 

[JimmyM]

Ok that's what i thought. I guess i was being confusing, (late night shift about to start) since i'm tired. I was so much talking about volume, tone, response etc., but rather what i meant was

410:115::810:215

if that makes sense. So for the sake of the thread, it seemd to me like it was comparing apples to oranges. If you wanted to do a fair comparison of the dispersion, it seems misleading to say that a 215 may have better dispersion results vs. a 410 when in reality it is the "big brother" of the 15 cabs compared to a "little 10". Again this probably makes no sense and I'll laugh when i see it in the morning.

Well 215's are usually oriented vertically, and that has a whole lot to do with why a 215 might have better dispersion than a 410. The 410 will have at least 20 inches, sometimes as much as 22" inches, so the mid dispersion in a vertical 215 will be better, though not by much, and probably not enough to make any appreciable difference.

As for your other stuff, I see what you mean now.

 

[lowdownstu]

I might be off topic here, but it reminds me of a tale I was told many years ago. If you take a 1x15 with 4x10 combination and compare it to just two of the same spec ( 2x1x15 or 2x4x10) the two later configs will have a natural boost?? I don't remember the details but for some reason I've stuck to it blindly. Any thoughts?

 

[greasyogre]

I'm sure that will sound just lovely

I don't guess it would sound any worse than running a DI straight to the house system. Just ask the sound guy how great it would sound.

 

[JimmyM]

That was not my experience at a local festival this weekend. They had just bought a Mesa Big Block V12 and a matching 4x10 for the festival. I figured I'd save my back and leave my rig at the practice space this time. I've had bad experiences with this in the past, but I had originaly heard they were going to have an Ampeg SVT 8x10 rig. The Mesa rig farted out before I even started to crank the juice. Fortunately, the stage monitoring situation was excellent and it was a non-issue.

We'll see when I build my 2x Killomax 15 cabinet.

Accent on the USUALLY part, dude. You can build cabs to fart out at whatever freqs you want But in general, the 410 will bury a 115 with an equivalent quality driver in volume, and can be designed to go just as low as a 115.

 

[greasyogre]

I had always heard such good thing about Mesa Boogie. I do have a Kappa Pro 15LF-2 in my SVT15E cabinet though, so maybe you're right.

 

[greasyogre]

I might be off topic here, but it reminds me of a tale I was told many years ago. If you take a 1x15 with 4x10 combination and compare it to just two of the same spec ( 2x1x15 or 2x4x10) the two later configs will have a natural boost?? I don't remember the details but for some reason I've stuck to it blindly. Any thoughts?

Putting two identical cabinets side by side in the middle of a room is similar to putting one against a wall, and putting two identical cabinets against a wall is similar to putting one in a corner. My drummer thinks I am strange when I insist on putting my cabinets in a corner though.

 

[rpsands]

The 15Lf-2 has the displacement if a normal quality 4x10 - but not a 410HLF or similar quality.

Jimmy's correct, unless the driver is a 3015LF - no commercial cabs use it though.

 

[rpsands]

Putting two identical cabinets side by side in the middle of a room is similar to putting one against a wall, and putting two identical cabinets against a wall is similar to putting one in a corner. My drummer thinks I am strange when I insist on putting my cabinets in a corner though.

This is true but it'll also make **** crazy boomy sometimes. Corners are weird.

 

[lowdownstu]

That's sounds about right. Thanks guys. I was just a kid when I had it explained so I just wanted to check I hadn't been fooling myself all this time!!

 

[xjeremiahx]

I understand his concern completely, and sympathize. The trumping of function by form is what happens when the design parameters of cabs are dictated by marketeers instead of engineers. OTOH cabs like the Genz-Benz Neox show that sound engineering practice need not be totally abandoned to conform with the cookie cutter mentality that permeates this industry.

i hear what you're saying. although i'm nowhere NEAR as educated on this stuff as you are, the more and more i read, the more i'm starting to realize the little nuances of sound and how it works. with that said though, wouldn't the 8x10 be kind of a stable(architecturally speaking) to how the sound disperses? since it, in essence, is 2 stacks of 4 10s?

Hell, i've just been going through the nonsense of realizing the 'coveted' cabinets i was going for were TERRIBLE together(IME). goes to show what the mainstream designs can impart on a younger,less informed mind.

one day there will be somebody to make this stuff right. I mean, we only bitch & moan about how bad this is and that is, maybe somebody will finally listen

bill, i always enjoy reading your posts. i learn a little bit more every time. thanks.
J

 

[JimmyM]

i hear what you're saying. although i'm nowhere NEAR as educated on this stuff as you are, the more and more i read, the more i'm starting to realize the little nuances of sound and how it works. with that said though, wouldn't the 8x10 be kind of a stable(architecturally speaking) to how the sound disperses? since it, in essence, is 2 stacks of 4 10s?

The major problem with the 810 is beaming...mids and highs drop off considerably when you get off axis to it. Having said that, it's what I use most of the time

 

[Korladis]

I never got pairing a 4x10 with a 1x15. It always seemed to me that two 10"s to each 15" was more balanced.

 

[KJung]

The major problem with the 810 is beaming...mids and highs drop off considerably when you get off axis to it. Having said that, it's what I use most of the time

And I'm sure it sounds great. I will again post that the issues of beaming, comb filtering, etc. are just a SMALL part of what makes a cab sound good or bad. I have both vertically aligned 212 cabs and 410's, and the dispersion differences in the upper mids both on stage and out in the room is trivial IMO and IME.

Would you rather have a 'vertical stack' that sounds like dog, or a 410 that sounds glorious Trust me, I've heard both.

And, when you take into account boundary conditions and other room acoustics, AND consider that we are talking about bass backline and not full range front of house here, I continue to chuckle at some TBers overemphasis on this stuff.

Find a cab that sounds great to you and play

 

[stflbn]

Turn the head on it's side beside the 2x10 stack. I used to do it that way when I had two small 4-space racks that I used with my 2 210 stack.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

But in general, the 410 will bury a 115 with an equivalent quality driver in volume, and can be designed to go just as low as a 115.

The rationale behind using a 1x15 and 4x10 is that the 1x15 goes lower and will give more bottom. In a word: Bull. This chart shows the frequency response of two 6 cu ft cabs, one loaded with a 2515, the other with four 2510 drivers. The 1x15 (grey trace) goes a bit lower, but barely measurably so, absolutely inaudibly so.

Now look at what really counts, both cabs driven to full power:

The 4x10 is louder and lower than the 1x15.
So adding a 1x15 to a 4x10 is less effective than adding another 4x10, and when you factor in the different phase responses of the two that results in them fighting each other as much as helping each other it's a poor combination.
And yes, many thousands of players have used this combination for decades. Why? Because they didn't know any better. Now you do.

Not that this absolves the 4x10 of the engineering sin of mounting drivers side by side, but a pair of vertical 2x10s, three if you must cures that.

 

[agedhorse]

Note for clarification...

There are several competing variables at play and while generalizations may be made, they are not accurate in many cases,

Some variables to consider are:

- raw dispersion pattern of the driver vs. frequency
- raw frequency response of the driver itself
- acoustic environment of the room
- spacing of the drivers in the box
- coupling to the acoustic space
- interaction of the bass with the speakers
- voicing of the amp
- position of the rig relative to the player on stage

 

[Greyvagabond]

Oh, just play the damn bass already, people

Its only rock'n'roll...

 

[Ashdharma]

Great thread! A truly educational experience, thanks fellas!