A bummer

[Accurmi]

I got a bass guitar for my 18th birthday with no thought of ever learning to play one. Not that I was ever against it, but it had just never occurred to me to learn. Anyhoo, I fell in love with it. I spent several years teaching myself, learning to play punk, ska, and reggae lines and did alright with it. Then I moved abroad and rarely played for four years. I'm 29 now and taken a new job in Bangkok, Thailand and when I moved here a year ago I was bound and determined to pick the instrument back up because I missed it so much. Bought a cheap bass and amp and started teaching myself again. Learning slapping and popping, strumming, and a wider range of genres with particular attention given to funk and more intricate finger styles. When I felt I had outgrown the bass I bought, I bit the bullet and bought the apple of my eye, a brand new Fender American Pro Jazz bass in sonic gray. It is easily, far and away, my most prized possession. I finally hit a point where I felt like I was trying to learn things that I simply couldn't teach myself and that my knowledge of theory needed to improve greatly. So, I sought out a bass instructor. And I found one. He is very good, very knowledgeable, and has been playing bass forever. And he is a very nice guy.

Here comes the bummer.

He takes one look at the way I play and pushes me straight back to square one. I'm learning arpeggios and scales, a new finger plucking technique (I was originally taught to always leave my thumb on the pickup), which requires me to rest my thumb on the e-string and drop to the a-string when going higher. I'm tasked with playing along to a metronome at 60-70 bpm while thumping out major, minor, diminishing, and augmented scales and arpeggios. My slap technique (self taught) is heavy-handed and I have an issue with pulling the string, rather than popping/plucking it (to be fair, this was something I knew needed to be corrected as it often causes me to miss the string/pop altogether and leaves me frustrated). Thus, my slapping/popping, too, is reduced to slow, muted thumps and pops at about 70 bpm.

I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here. Maybe I just need to vent and see it on a page. Just sucks when I felt I was making progress learning fun, complex bass lines played by Flea and toying with/attempting John The Fisherman by Primus and now I'm back to what feels like the most beginner of beginner bass levels.

The caveat to all this is that I still possess a burning desire to be very good at the instrument and I love it.

Anyone ever been there? Any advice?

 

[JW56789]

It boils down to what you want to do.

You are self-taught, as are most of us to some degree. This, however, does leave quite the chance that you are not doing things in a way a professionally trained player would do it, and no harm in that: You didn't know any better.

There are methods for learning to play most any instrument in a school way, if you will. The scales, the theory, metronome practice, sight reading, etc., teach you the language of music and the basics of performance.

I had this training. I never wound up playing 'reading gigs' or needing much more than sufficient technique and good ears . . . . . but that grounding in the method was always present in my playing and my thought process and my hearing and absorbing music. Others in different corners of music would have needed every bit of it and more, say a guy in a pro band that used real charts or session players or any number of situations I never encountered. Each of our experiences are different.

In any event, I regarded all of that like coaching or spring training or batting practice to put it in a sports mindset, a way of learning or being coached up to new skills and new ways of seeing things (or hearing them).

Some guys are happy as a clam being utterly self-taught and need no more, and all the music training is a big pain in the butt.

But there is usually the reaction you've had, a certain dismay and finding out what you don't know or are doing the hard way as you didn't know better. I know I felt it.

But in my case, I gritted it out, was better for it, and could see how it improved many parts of my playing, even if it did require a little dented ego for a while. This is normal for most of us.

You've had a taste, and you'll have to decide if it's worth it you to proceed. I'd only say in life I prefer more knowledge to less, and have often been hammered by not knowing what I didn't know. And like everything else in life, the work you put it in is the yardstick of the competence you achieve.

It's up to you.

 

[Accurmi]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I like the sports analogy you mentioned. That is a good way to look at it.

I have no intention of stopping, because as you put it, I, too, prefer more knowledge to less. My ego has definitely been dented, but I'm willing to grit it out and do what is necessary. Guess I just needed to find some common ground with other players who have been knocked backward when pursuing something they love.

Ultimately, I have no doubt that the rigors of basic practice and technique will pay off dividends in the long run. But man... when you first get hit with the news of it, it doesn't feel too good. I'm in the process of planning out a good practice regiment that can help me improve and nail down the finer points. While I have no intention of ever being a high powered session musician or anything of the like (I'm a teacher and simply don't have time for it), I would certainly love to be able to jam with some folks to some of my favorite tunes/genres.

Side note, I like your tag of "People's Republic of East Nashville" I'm originally from Knoxville, myself.

 

[fearceol]

I can't really see where "the bummer" is. You got a bass teacher and now, because he is not teaching you what you expected, you regard it as a bummer. From what you describe, he seems to be on the right track, especially with regards to not resting the thumb on the pick up. This can cause injury problems in the long term, so you'll thank him in time.

You say.... "I still possess a burning desire to be very good at the instrument and I love it.." In that case my advice is to let your teacher guide you towards that goal. He seems to have got you off to a good start already.

 

[el murdoque]

Sounds like you and your teacher just started out. As with most self taught players, there are flaws in your technique that usually lead you to a certain level where you will not be able to progress further because of technique. Also, he might fill in the gaps in theoretic knowledge that will help you along greatly further along the way.

Frankly, there are those that bit the bullet and did their work somewhere in their career (the earlier the better)
and there are those that won't rise beyond a certain level because they stepped around that.
And there are the prodigal geniuses that don't need any of that.

 

[Skybone]

It may be a bummer to go through, but it's always good to learn new things, especially when it comes to technique & theory. More strings to your bow etc.

The best way of learning however, IMO, would be to join a band and play with other musicians. This is where your knowledge and skills come to the fore. Maybe go along to a Jam Night or something, maybe look through the "Wanted" ads in your local music shop or online. Maybe you have some friends who play other instruments. Get out there & give it your best shot.

Don't forget that you're doing this for "fun", so if what you're doing so far isn't fun, then look for something else that will make it fun.

 

[ba55i5t]

I remember playing a riff from Master of Puppets for my teacher the first time he came over (jazz influenced). I thought he would be impressed. Then he stuck a book in front of me and I had trouble playing Mary Had a Little Lamb.

The humbling process is necessary in music, as in most things in life. If you always have that in your head, then you will progress much faster, but still realize there is so much more to learn.

 

[Accurmi]

I appreciate all of the responses thus far. They have been helpful.

Ya, it can be a bit of a bummer. There was never the feeling that it wasn't fun or that I was going to give it up, just a bit of difficulty processing the fact that I was going to have to take so many steps back before I can move forward again. After two days of pretty rigorous practice of only playing basic arpeggios with new finger technique, I can already feel things moving in the right direction, which is great. I do know it will pay off in the long run, but for now I think I'm going to just have to grind it out. Like any skill I have acquired before, it will have its dull moments. This is it haha.

Basically I wrote this post so I could verbally/textually process my dented ego lol. I don't really know other musicians here, so I needed an outlet.

I would really love to be able to jam with other musicians, but the language barrier here in Bangkok can make it tricky. My teacher asked if I was playing with anyone and if I wanted to get in touch with some people to jam with, which I would absolutely love. I miss being able to play along with a drummer

 

[Accurmi]

I remember playing a riff from Master of Puppets for my teacher the first time he came over (jazz influenced). I thought he would be impressed. Then he stuck a book in front of me and I had trouble playing Mary Had a Little Lamb.

The humbling process is necessary in music, as in most things in life. If you always have that in your head, then you will progress much faster, but still realize there is so much more to learn.

This is gold. Words to live by.

 

[saabfender]

He takes one look at the way I play and pushes me straight back to square one...

Anyone ever been there? Any advice?

Never been there because I'd have blown out there almost immediately. That's not something a competent instructor would do.

You take adult musicians where they are when they come to you for lessons. In fact, that's the challenging part: figuring out where they he is musically and working with him to figure out where he wants to go and how to get him there.

This guy sees his way as the only right way. Worse, he can't or won't construct a course of study that acknowledges who you currently are as a player.

Myself, I certainly can and have taught scales and arpeggios bass playing. But that's to guys with a formal musical background. I'd no sooner teach a self-taught bassist that way than fly to the moon.

If you can stand up in a room of bass players (here) and say "my slapping's" pretty good," then I'm sure it's passable and better than mine.

Every instructor isn't right for every student. This guy is wrong for you. Move on.

 

[JRA]

Anyone ever been there? Any advice?

if you trust this guy's ability to assess your abilities = better stick with his program to 'unlearn' some of your bad habits.

in general, however: saabfender 's take is more my experience. i've never sought lessons as a beginner...only as a player, so = the instruction was all about what/how to practice and learning new techniques, or ways of thinking about the music or the instrument.

good luck on your journey!

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Here comes the bummer.

He takes one look at the way I play and pushes me straight back to square one. I'm learning arpeggios and scales, a new finger plucking technique (I was originally taught to always leave my thumb on the pickup), which requires me to rest my thumb on the e-string and drop to the a-string when going higher. I'm tasked with playing along to a metronome at 60-70 bpm while thumping out major, minor, diminishing, and augmented scales and arpeggios. My slap technique (self taught) is heavy-handed and I have an issue with pulling the string, rather than popping/plucking it (to be fair, this was something I knew needed to be corrected as it often causes me to miss the string/pop altogether and leaves me frustrated). Thus, my slapping/popping, too, is reduced to slow, muted thumps and pops at about 70 bpm.

I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here. Maybe I just need to vent and see it on a page. Just sucks when I felt I was making progress learning fun, complex bass lines played by Flea and toying with/attempting John The Fisherman by Primus and now I'm back to what feels like the most beginner of beginner bass levels.

The caveat to all this is that I still possess a burning desire to be very good at the instrument and I love it.

Anyone ever been there? Any advice?

I don't like that thumb thing, I've never heard of your guy's technique being taught and that way wouldn't work for me. I play with my thumb either on a thumb rest or pickup, or alternatively not anchored anywhere (which is the preferable way of playing imo). The rest, metronome scales & arpeggios, well it's tedious practice but it will pay off in the long run.

 

[Accurmi]

Never been there because I'd have blown out there almost immediately. That's not something a competent instructor would do.

You take adult musicians where they are when they come to you for lessons. In fact, that's the challenging part: figuring out where they he is musically and working with him to figure out where he wants to go and how to get him there.

This guy sees his way as the only right way. Worse, he can't or won't construct a course of study that acknowledges who you currently are as a player.

Myself, I certainly can and have taught scales and arpeggios bass playing. But that's to guys with a formal musical background. I'd no sooner teach a self-taught bassist that way than fly to the moon.

If you can stand up in a room of bass players (here) and say "my slapping's" pretty good," then I'm sure it's passable and better than mine.

Every instructor isn't right for every student. This guy is wrong for you. Move on.

I can certainly see where you are coming from here. But I haven't had an instructor since I first started playing over 10 years ago. I think I will at least give it a couple months and see how it goes. Seems like it can't really hurt. Worst case scenario, I just move on having picked up a bit more than I knew before.

It would have been nice for him to have at least ask what sort of music I want to play as well

I have a few songs in mind I'd like to aim for and I don't want to ONLY practice scales, arpeggios, and very theoretical stuff. So, perhaps next time I meet with him I will talk to him about what sort of stuff I'd like to play.

But I do appreciate the words of advice. Every little bit helps.

 

[interp]

You're only 29. I've had broccoli stuck in my teeth longer than that.

Thank your lucky stars that you have someone at this early stage to help you unlearn bad habits and expand your musical horizons.

Keep at it. You'll be fine.

 

[RichardW]

Ah, the classic "technique vs. talent" debate. It's been raging for years.

Many great bassists have been self-taught and had what would be considered "bad" technique. James Jamerson played everything with a single finger. Chris Squire would fret with his thumb. Brian Wilson didn't use his pinky to fret. The point is, you can develop your own style of playing as long as it works for you and the song.

That said, I think you've found yourself a good teacher who is teaching you the fundamentals. That will only help. It's good to know the rules before you can break the rules. Learning rock-solid timing with a metronome, learning your scales and modes, solid left-hand and right-hand technique, arpeggios, etc.--these things will only help you in the long run. I don't think that's a "bummer" at all, though I understand it might be frustrating in the short term because it's like learning to walk all over again.

But the bottom line here is, you can ultimately do what you want and use the technique you want. We're talking bass playing here, not filling out your tax forms. Nobody's going to jail if you don't follow the rules.

 

[micguy]

Having an instructor is a good thing. Being self taught means the "instructor" can much more easily be in denial that something needs to change. An external instructor is more likely to see your flaws than you do, and help you work on them.

I'm pretty good at realizing when something I'm doing isn't cutting it, which means I'm doing OK, but if an instructor can get you to where you need before you need it on a gig, there is value there.

 

[organworthyplayer337]

Yeah, that's very discouraging. I see and acknowledge where you're coming from. Sometimes people will look at a post like yours and disregard the fact that disappointment is a human emotion. What I'll say as a very over-analytical, anxious person is: think of the lessons as an additive component to your journey, not as the "only track" you are on right now. Continue learning the songs you love and playing to your favorite songs etc. In due time, you'll be able to apply the things that you are learning with your teacher in your everyday jamming/play-alongs.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

You did very well all on your own.
But as you said, you reached at a plateau.
Now that you have someone who can help you past that, Imagine what you can do.

Sometimes you have to take a step back to go two steps forward.

It all good. Wish you the best, and welcome to Talkbass.

 

[Drucifer]

Welcome to Talkbass! It may seem like this is a step backwards, especially because you are not as fast (yet) using the new proper technique than you were using your self-taught techniques, but the benefits of using proper technique will soon be clear, and you'll be faster and more adept and ready to take on more challenging material.

That being said, I have had probably a dozen teachers over 40 years, all highly qualified, and they have had some differing opinions on what constituted proper technique. Technique on electric bass guitar is not as set in stone as it is with string bass, for example. I have had instructors teach fixed right hand versus floating right hand, and I had to decide which was best for me (ultimately, floating.) Good luck and keep at it!

 

[Wasnex]

I got a bass guitar for my 18th birthday with no thought of ever learning to play one. Not that I was ever against it, but it had just never occurred to me to learn. Anyhoo, I fell in love with it. I spent several years teaching myself, learning to play punk, ska, and reggae lines and did alright with it. Then I moved abroad and rarely played for four years. I'm 29 now and taken a new job in Bangkok, Thailand and when I moved here a year ago I was bound and determined to pick the instrument back up because I missed it so much. Bought a cheap bass and amp and started teaching myself again. Learning slapping and popping, strumming, and a wider range of genres with particular attention given to funk and more intricate finger styles. When I felt I had outgrown the bass I bought, I bit the bullet and bought the apple of my eye, a brand new Fender American Pro Jazz bass in sonic gray. It is easily, far and away, my most prized possession. I finally hit a point where I felt like I was trying to learn things that I simply couldn't teach myself and that my knowledge of theory needed to improve greatly. So, I sought out a bass instructor. And I found one. He is very good, very knowledgeable, and has been playing bass forever. And he is a very nice guy.

Here comes the bummer.

He takes one look at the way I play and pushes me straight back to square one. I'm learning arpeggios and scales, a new finger plucking technique (I was originally taught to always leave my thumb on the pickup), which requires me to rest my thumb on the e-string and drop to the a-string when going higher. I'm tasked with playing along to a metronome at 60-70 bpm while thumping out major, minor, diminishing, and augmented scales and arpeggios. My slap technique (self taught) is heavy-handed and I have an issue with pulling the string, rather than popping/plucking it (to be fair, this was something I knew needed to be corrected as it often causes me to miss the string/pop altogether and leaves me frustrated). Thus, my slapping/popping, too, is reduced to slow, muted thumps and pops at about 70 bpm.

I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here. Maybe I just need to vent and see it on a page. Just sucks when I felt I was making progress learning fun, complex bass lines played by Flea and toying with/attempting John The Fisherman by Primus and now I'm back to what feels like the most beginner of beginner bass levels.

The caveat to all this is that I still possess a burning desire to be very good at the instrument and I love it.

Anyone ever been there? Any advice?

At a certain level of technical development, each player tends to go their own way in regards to how they approach the instrument. It's not clear that you have developed to this point yet, and your instructor seems to be trying to slow you down to help you build a stronger foundation. In the future, you will likely discard some of the knowledge this, and every other, instructor teaches you. How will you find what is best for you without trying different approaches?

Some instructors can definitely be overly dogmatic in their approach. In my opinion the best type of instructor is the one who will help you find your way rather than insisting on "my way or the highway." It can be difficult to see the truth in these matters and ultimately you have to decide if you are benefiting from the lessons or being held back.

IMHO you need to define the intent of the lessons and compartmentalize/prioritize a bit. If you want the lessons to be primarily a developmental/learning experience, you might have the right instructor. Recognize that learning is hard work and it is your responsibility to balance the work with fun so you don't bet burned out. If you don't have the time or discipline to practice and learn the concepts your instructor is covering, you are wasting money and both your and the instructor's time. Either decrease the frequency of the lessons, or if you want the lessons to be more enjoyable, find another instructor, but recognize you may not learn as much.