I'll take any opportunity i can to give a shout out to Eurosonic orchestral aka Presto balance orchestral strings as a fantastic hybrid string. they're amazing on the bow and they sound great pizz. Gollihur just started to offer them; they were hard to come-by for a while ime
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Double Bass A good hybrid string: no such thing?
- Thread starter endorka
- Start date
Regarding hybrid strings, I believe John Clayton uses light gauge Evah Pirazzis currently (via David Moore).
Ken Smith too. Ken mentioned he had to learn not to overpower them with the bow. David also said 'Finding a hybrid is always a tricky task as you usually end up with something that is equally mediocre at arco and pizz.'
Was that name dropping? If so three pretty good names!
For some reason, today while bowing away at the Rabbath stuff, I had crazy thoughts of turning my classical bass into a Paul Chambers sounding jazz beast. My basses seem to always be evolving…
Ken Smith too. Ken mentioned he had to learn not to overpower them with the bow. David also said 'Finding a hybrid is always a tricky task as you usually end up with something that is equally mediocre at arco and pizz.'
Was that name dropping? If so three pretty good names!
For some reason, today while bowing away at the Rabbath stuff, I had crazy thoughts of turning my classical bass into a Paul Chambers sounding jazz beast. My basses seem to always be evolving…
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This is an interesting 11-year old discussion for me... Having just changed strings about 12 days ago, my 2nd complete string change in 2 to 3 months, I'm reminded how nice it is to be able to bow again; the previous strings that I was experimenting with were just not designed for arco, and they really weren't bow-able at all. I'm glad to be able to bow again with my current strings.
But in reading this thread, this discussion seems to be much more than about the ability for a string set to be bowed; it's seems to really be about the tone of a set of strings under the bow, while the ability to successfully bow that set is pretty much assumed. And the tone under the bow seems in my simplistic view to be a couple of magnitudes more complex than just being able to start the strings with the bow.
That said, for anyone wondering, it is very possible to start some fat, low tension synthetic strings in arco if those strings have some surface texture to them either by virtue of windings or as a result of a special process. Most makers of fat low tension synthetic strings don't intentionally target their strings for arco, but for many brands it can "accidentally" be done at least to some extent. There may be some left-hand performance issues because most of these fat low tension synthetic strings will require higher action than thinner high tension metal strings, but despite being challenging, at least "simple" arco is doable with a number of brands of these strings.
In particular, for me probably the biggest arco surprise among fat low tension synthetic strings may be the diminutive Superior BassWorks (SBW) Deluxe "Dirty Guts". These are fairly popular among slappers and pizz players of various roots genre; they are very low cost, basically Kevlar core gator line that has been textured with a spiral cut and that has had provisions made for reliable attachment to double bass tailpieces. They come in a bump-pack of 6 strings so people can select their strings by thickness and tension, although they are by nature all pretty low tension strings. Because of their texture and spiral cut, they have an amazing affinity for the bow, probably better than most other fat low tension synthetics... And in fact they seem to sound pretty good for arco (although again, arco tone is probably not something I can judge very well).
I've also had fairly good luck with Innovation SilverSlaps for arco. They aren't as responsive as "Dirty Guts"; fresh sticky rosin, a tight bow and some special technique may be required. But they seem to be reliably started under the bow with a little practice. These strings growl in pizz, so they also growl in arco, but they can produce a sensitive quality in their tone too.
Respectfully, most arco specialists who really know excellent arco strings may dispute the value of being able to start these fat low tension synthetic strings with a bow, but to many of us seemingly "permanent arco novices" who may only bow during practice or just for rare effects on stage, this level of arco ability may still be of high value. I know that I really enjoy the limited bowing that I do, enough that in the future I may require at least moderate bow-ability in the fat low tension synthetic strings that I install.
But in reading this thread, this discussion seems to be much more than about the ability for a string set to be bowed; it's seems to really be about the tone of a set of strings under the bow, while the ability to successfully bow that set is pretty much assumed. And the tone under the bow seems in my simplistic view to be a couple of magnitudes more complex than just being able to start the strings with the bow.
That said, for anyone wondering, it is very possible to start some fat, low tension synthetic strings in arco if those strings have some surface texture to them either by virtue of windings or as a result of a special process. Most makers of fat low tension synthetic strings don't intentionally target their strings for arco, but for many brands it can "accidentally" be done at least to some extent. There may be some left-hand performance issues because most of these fat low tension synthetic strings will require higher action than thinner high tension metal strings, but despite being challenging, at least "simple" arco is doable with a number of brands of these strings.
In particular, for me probably the biggest arco surprise among fat low tension synthetic strings may be the diminutive Superior BassWorks (SBW) Deluxe "Dirty Guts". These are fairly popular among slappers and pizz players of various roots genre; they are very low cost, basically Kevlar core gator line that has been textured with a spiral cut and that has had provisions made for reliable attachment to double bass tailpieces. They come in a bump-pack of 6 strings so people can select their strings by thickness and tension, although they are by nature all pretty low tension strings. Because of their texture and spiral cut, they have an amazing affinity for the bow, probably better than most other fat low tension synthetics... And in fact they seem to sound pretty good for arco (although again, arco tone is probably not something I can judge very well).
I've also had fairly good luck with Innovation SilverSlaps for arco. They aren't as responsive as "Dirty Guts"; fresh sticky rosin, a tight bow and some special technique may be required. But they seem to be reliably started under the bow with a little practice. These strings growl in pizz, so they also growl in arco, but they can produce a sensitive quality in their tone too.
Respectfully, most arco specialists who really know excellent arco strings may dispute the value of being able to start these fat low tension synthetic strings with a bow, but to many of us seemingly "permanent arco novices" who may only bow during practice or just for rare effects on stage, this level of arco ability may still be of high value. I know that I really enjoy the limited bowing that I do, enough that in the future I may require at least moderate bow-ability in the fat low tension synthetic strings that I install.
In parallel, the thread to me is also about which pizz sound you want. Loved the post that said the string that gives you the best bowed sound also gives you the best pizz sound. Probably not so simple, but could be nice...
I hope they get the light gauge in the future.
They only offer the mediums at the moment, and these are quite stiff IMO.
I know that this has been said gazillion times, but I find Spirocores beeing the ultimate hybrid strings. I also realize that they are not the right string for every bass and player. The thing with them is the broad pallette of tonal qualities, and the players ability to get out the needed sound at the given musical situation. They mellow with age, and during that process I`ve found myself getting better at controlling the sonical output, be that arco, pizz or slap. The thing is that it`s all there, and then it`s up to me to sound the way I want / need.
I like Spiros a lot too. I think the Weich are perhaps the better hybrid string in general because having less mass makes them easier to start with the bow, but the Mittels are a good arco string too, at least on my bass. I think your point about how they continue to age is good, too. I guess I'm in the Spirocores-just-keep-getting-better camp.
That said, my bass is currently strung with EP Weichs, but I've been resisting the urge to put the Spiros back on. Just forcing myself to try different things. I'm also super tempted to try a set of Perpetuals because I really like the tone I hear in recordings (slightly mellower with more low mids compared to Spiros) and the idea of a more "supple" string as they are often described. I wonder if they have the same "broad pallette of tonal qualities, and the players ability to get out the needed sound at the given musical situation," (if I may borrow Reiska's words) as Spirocores. Anyone?
Earl
Supporting Member
I have said this before but I think the Superflexible solo set tuned to orchestra is a good hybrid set, especially if you like lower tension. After they break in the pizz has a deep, round, burnished tone that still cuts through. I usually use a gut G and sometimes D with them but at the moment I am using the full set. There is something to using a set of the same strings, which I almost never do.
How do they compare to other braided steel core strings? What kind of lifespan do you get out of them?
Earl
Supporting Member
I have had the same ones on one bass for many years and I bought them used so…
Not sure how they compare but check out this for sound:
I'm going to go with 'door number 1'. Having just acquired a nice older 'Czech'? 3/4 flatback as my new 'gigging bass', I'm thinking of putting Belcantos on my 7/8 Shen Gemunder and calling that my Orchestra Bass.
Goldfinger heh, interesting.
I don't hear the bass much though, the guitar is much louder in the mix.
Thanks!
François
I'm trying so hard to tolerate the sound of Aquilas Gold Springs vintage gut strings under the bow on the top end (over Spiros) because the pizz sound is my ideal… but alas, all roads in finding a "hybrid" string for me lead to Spirocores and/or Perpetuals. I can't hang with the scratch arco tone and the Spiro set is going back on tomorrow. I'd play Bel Cantos over Spiros in a heartbeat if I bowed more than pluck'd, tho.
Earl
Supporting Member
Maybe listen with headphones. I can hear the bass fine.Goldfinger heh, interesting.
I don't hear the bass much though, the guitar is much louder in the mix.
Thanks!
François
Try Obligatos over Spiros. They blend well and the Obligatos have more of a gut-like sound. Also, you might like Polychromes…I haven't tried them but I keep hearing they are similar to gut with a metal wrap yet great under the bow.
So, gotta ask, back in the day when gut was all there was to put on your DB, what did people do to bow them?
I played in the Omaha Symphony way back when and the principal was a hardcore gut player. He had played in the National Symphony for many years and was a Julliard grad so had top credentials and was a great orchestra player. I was his stand partner so got to hear him up close. The sound he got was amazing. He had an Italian bass that sounded huge and he knew all the orchestra rep tricks so being next to him was a lesson every time. If anything, those gut strings gave his tone a kind of edge that really made it audible and clear. I mentioned in another post about him playing a low Db(gut long E string) that made me nearly fall on the floor. I still have never experienced anything quite like it. I occasionally went out into the hall to hear him warm up(he hated when I did that) and any scratchiness or roughness was inaudible. It was just great orchestra bass sound. Great technique is great technique no matter the string.
Earl
Supporting Member
They bowed them.
I have progressed enough so that I am almost-equally mediocre at bowing guts as bowing steels.
Plain gut is easier than wrapped gut. The Gamut pistoy G and D on my "cheap" carved bass are great to bow ... the copper-wound A, not so easy; some of that difficulty is the transition from one construction to the other.
The touch is definitely different: It's easy to choke guts with too much weight, and they're more sensitive to bow placement. And, as @Bruce Calin implies, the bassist has the worst seat in the house for hearing the great sound.
Francois, they have the light gauge at least in Europe. But even the "lights" are not so lights
https://www.thomann.de/fi/presto_balance_orchestra_3_4l.htm
