A lesson for the elitists:

[slngd]

I don't like the way this video dictates that you HAVE to be out of a musical family to be able to speak the "language". I think this is bull****. Of course it gives you some kind of edge to grow up with and around it.

If you really feel the music, you can learn to play at any time in your life. Even if you are 60, and suddenly find out you want to play bass, piano or whatever - you CAN. You just need to feel it...

 

[BruceForrest]

*Disclaimer* I don't think TB is full of elitists, but for those who know a few, this is for them who think that newbies should stick to lessons and not taint the 'professional' talent pool:

If you can play well, you can become a professional and you don't need lessons. If you can't, and you want ot become a professional, then lessons and their attendant homework are a very good idea.

Is that really so hard to understand?

Sure, you can learn by playing in one garage band after another, but it's going to take a lot longer than if you were taking lessons at the same time.

There isn't much danger of you becoming a pro if you don't trade practicing for whining about its necessity on the Internet. .

Bruce

 

[lfmn16]

this is for them who think that newbies should stick to lessons and not taint the 'professional' talent pool:

Who said that newbies should stick to lessons and not taint the 'professional' talent pool? I've never seen that on TB or anywhere else.

IMHO, the surest road to becoming a great musician is to practice, play AND study music. I don't know anyone who says they wish they new LESS theory.

 

[puddin tame]

I'd be completely shocked to hear that Vic doesn't know how to read music. His buddy Ant Wellington does. I imagine he doesn't work off of sheet music very often, but he's got to know at least the basics of it to hang with the company he keeps.

But assuming he doesn't, try to remember that you and I ain't Vic

So you are just assuming he knows a lot of theory and can read? As i say, unless hes done a 180 since releasing the groove workshop dvd and writing the music lesson hes no theory specialist.

His whole thing is that people spend too much time just worrying about what notes to play when there is so much other than the notes which make up theory. If i am not mistaken, the study of music theory is primarily a concern of what notes work with what other notes and why.

Of course his other main point is that he may well be entirely wrong. He has his ways and encourages people to supplement what they already know with his school of thought.

So yeah im not discouraging theory or reading but personally i side with vic, who is not big on theory at all but acknowledges it is still good stuff for those that learn it. On the original topic i 100% agree that the best musical development is made by jamming freely with superior musicians

 

[FunkySpoo]

Really funny how he says all that, but is still a very learned player who can read and write music and knows a whole lot about theory.

Sorry, ain't buying it. And I'm getting really tired of those who argue against learning how to read and learning theory "elitists." You don't have to spend much money on learning it at all. My wife taught herself how to read treble and bass clef within a week after getting a cheap electronic piano and a method book. So knock off the "elitist" nonsense. All it takes is a little effort and patience.

I love Victori Wooten but I agree, him saying that learning theory and how to read music isn't important is totally and utterly hypocritical. That said, it's also completely normal for guys at that level, who learned all their bucket loads of theory years ago, to always say to people "Nah mann, it's all about your soul mann, you gotta play with feel mann, you just gotta let it flow through you and let it all be natural, you can't force it". Well, I'm sorry but you have to force yourself to practise because it requires discipline, and there isn't anything nlantantly "natural" about sitting in a room playing along to scribbles, but you have to do it to get good.

Hmm. I didn't get the "Don't ever learn theory" message you guys seemingly did. Seems he pretty clearly stated that as babies we spoke with the masters of the language on a daily basis then we went to school to learn the theory, I.E. spelling and grammar.
The message I got was, in the beginning play with people who can already play then learn theory.

 

[aidan784]

So you are just assuming he knows a lot of theory and can read? As i say, unless hes done a 180 since releasing the groove workshop dvd and writing the music lesson hes no theory specialist.

His whole thing is that people spend too much time just worrying about what notes to play when there is so much other than the notes which make up theory. If i am not mistaken, the study of music theory is primarily a concern of what notes work with what other notes and why.

Of course his other main point is that he may well be entirely wrong. He has his ways and encourages people to supplement what they already know with his school of thought.

So yeah im not discouraging theory or reading but personally i side with vic, who is not big on theory at all but acknowledges it is still good stuff for those that learn it. On the original topic i 100% agree that the best musical development is made by jamming freely with superior musicians

There are a few contradictions when it comes to Victor and his proposed theory knowledge, I found some on the groove workshop dvd which I've yet to find the motivation to finish.

But here's just one, in his the best of Victor Wooten transcription book, all the transcriptions are apparently done by him. Given the odd rhythms and changing time signatures ever, he's above rudimentary in terms of reading and theory.

There are some quality pieces of instruction in the groove workshop dvd that it's easy to skip over though. When he says spend time with the chromatic scale and learn the sound of each note so you're comfortable with all notes not just the root, that's been the basis of my ear training for almost a year and I feel I'm nowhere near done with it.

There should be no real 'versus' though, every great jazz 'academic' teacher I've read about has stressed the importance of immersion in the tradition through records and live music. There's no doubt starting young helps though!!

 

[Clef_de_fa]

I saw that video not so long ago and I'm sure all he is saying is learn to play before learning how all that works ( music theory ) then you will grow faster that way.

Nowhere he says **** theory just learn by ear and be happy.

I have his collection of transcription that he said are transcribe by him and him alone. He deffinitly know how to read or write music even if his music is harmonicaly simple, technically they are very advanced.

Of course being born in a music familly will make everything easy for you ... you will probably speak the language of music before you speak english/french/spanish etc ...

But you can learn it otherwise and be a monster ... look at Joe Pass, in one of the CD I have of him it is said that his father was a miner and hate his life so he forced Joe to learn guitar. That way he could have a better life, better condition etc. The thing is Joe hated music as his life because he didn't have the choice to play 8hours a day during his elementary and high school. He didn't come from a music familly but he is one of the very influancal jazz guitarist.


So in all, the only thing you can do is practice, make music with other if you like be never stop learning something new

 

[zon6c-f]

As I first began to speak, it was necssary, in order to COMMUNICATE how I felt and what I NEEDED or WANTED; using more complicated sentiences as I grew.

In elementary school,from the alphabet, we began to learn to read and spell. Later, we learned simple parts of a sentence then paragraghs, punctuation, grammar, eventually diagraming sentences. Later we began to read English Literature; the Classics.

Can I still diagram a sentence? Yes, but I have no need, nor further purpose, so I don't. Same as for Parts of a sentence; Subject, Predicate, etc.

Later, as I tried different instruments, eventually selling on bass and chorus, as well; I had to learn some basics of the LANGUAGE of Music.

I have enough books to where I should be able to read and compose music as well as I am fluent in English; it's just anotgher language, which translates into music. However, I grew lazy ; learned 3 chord progressions, learning fingering patterns instead of the theory behind them and thus I CAN PLAY BASS. However, I would not walk into any studio and demand a session position because I can PLAY bass.

As simply as county music seems, their session musicians have their own language; "Nashville Number System"; another dialect if you will.

Music and it's Language is a complex system of communication, above whether of not you have skills, chops..whatever bass and amp. It's not elitist to use the language of music, unless you use it to denegreate others, as with any spoken language.

 

[BassyBill]

Don't forget it would also be very easy to argue with Vic's main point. Is music itself really "a language"? Or is it, by its abstract nature, actually just the opposite?

Anybody who's tried asking a local where to have a leak in Bratislava by pulling a banjo out of a case and playing a little instrumental number will know what I'm getting at here.

 

[nickbass79]

Don't forget it would also be very easy to argue with Vic's main point. Is music itself really "a language"? Or is it, by its abstract nature, actually just the opposite?

Anybody who's tried asking a local where to have a leak in Bratislava by pulling a banjo out of a case and playing a little instrumental number will know what I'm getting at here.

So, would you leave your...um..."capo" hanging out to better express through the tune that you need to take to leak?

 

[Roy Vogt]

I have a vivid memory of jamming with a bunch of Italian Jazz Musicians at the 1989 Montreux festival. I didn't speak Italian and they couldn't speak English but when I played the unison lick from Chick Corea's "Spain" they smiled and we played the tune. So we both spoke "Chick".
As an Academic and Elitist Music Teacher and College Professor I can find nothing wrong with what Vic says.

 

[Freddels]

A language is a tool for conveying ideas to others. Sure, we all learn to speak at an early age, but then we go to school to learn information and ideas on what to convey to others. If you don't learn to say anything intelligent, then nobody is going to want to listen to you.

 

[henry2513]

Guys who think it's ok to not learn theory and read should realize that people who only know how to speak a language and not read and write are considered this: illiterate.

If you think you can have a good grasp of music without learning theory and learning how to read you are fooling yourself and not taking it seriously. It's only a hobby for you and that's cool, but don't delude yourself into thinking you're approaching music seriously.

 

[fearceol]

Don't forget it would also be very easy to argue with Vic's main point. Is music itself really "a language"? Or is it, by its abstract nature, actually just the opposite?

Anybody who's tried asking a local where to have a leak in Bratislava by pulling a banjo out of a case and playing a little instrumental number will know what I'm getting at here.

Sorry, but I dont know what you are getting at at all.


I assumed that when people talked about music being a "language," it was accepted to be in a musical context. Like when people refer to jazz improvisers as having a conversation.

The conversation required in your above example is a different one, i.e. a verbal one. Plus, even with this verbal language unless you speak the local one, you might as well be playing a banjo, for all you will be understood.

 

[Winterpegbass]

I ain't got no use fer book learnin

 

[zon6c-f]

Bass player in band:

"Dudes..I got this thing, and it goes like this......

.. Then learns more about Music.....

"Dudes..I got this thing.. it's a 3-chord turn-around..It's in A.


Learns more... Heres a chart: It's a 3- chord progression in A minor with a bridge in D minor.... modulates to B and resolves back in...

Now, maybe he doesn't know advanced theory, but he's learning to COMMUNICATE in MUSIC. If this bass player continues further, he becomes a musician who plays bass, understands chords, reads charts and eventually lines or an entire written piece.

Now this bass player has become more fluent in the Language of Music; more hirable in different genres and with a bit of luck, can possibly make music a career with a winning personality and sense of responsibilty and time management...and not in the least as an elitist.

 

[LexD]

my takeaway--
wow, that camera work made me dizzy

 

[notverygood]

I didn't hear Vic say anywhere in that video that theory was bad. My take off of it was "stop worrying and go play." When Vic and Roy Vogt agree, I would think it's good advice.

 

[HolmeBass]

I don't think Vic was saying don't *ever* learn to read music, or theory, or practice for perfection. He was saying not to start out that way, and especially that's not a productive approach for younger players.

Starting out, jam with better musicians, don't sweat mistakes too much, and organically develop a musical vocabulary. No theory I ever learned really made any sense until I had related it to a concrete musical example in a particular song anyway. The connections can be made no matter which is learned first, and Vic is saying concentrate on playing first. I have to agree.

That said, I think that means ear training, active listening, and playing with better musicians, not blowing through lame tab with your equally un-skilled buddies while smoking copious amounts of weed. Young students may not have to immerse themselves in formal theory or musical notation right off the bat, but at least don't be so lazy as to not try and train your ear! The sooner you start, the better it will be.

 

[JimmyM]

I saw that video not so long ago and I'm sure all he is saying is learn to play before learning how all that works ( music theory ) then you will grow faster that way.

Nowhere he says **** theory just learn by ear and be happy.

Agreed, but the things Vic doesn't realize are:

---He comes from a musical family where he grew up surrounded by it, and that's not the norm for everyone.

---Not everyone has the natural affinity for making music commensurate with their eagerness to learn it.

---People tend to give advice based on their own experiences, and not everyone realizes that the things they do that come super easy to them don't for others.

Some people are more inclined to be able to make music than others, some of us have to work at it, and that's just the way it is. There are things about music that come pretty easily to me, and other things that don't. I have (had) perfect pitch and a great natural sense of rhythm, but making sense out of all the notes to where I could write and perform music didn't come as naturally. If not for reading music when I was a kid, I seriously doubt I could have done it. And I most likely would have to quit once my "rock star sell by" date expired 25 years ago

Vic is trying to do a good thing here, but I think he sometimes forgets that he's Victor Wooten, member of a hugely musical family immersed in it since birth. And I think a lot of you who are using this video as justification for not learning how to read music forget that you're NOT Victor Wooten, member of a hugely musical family immersed in it since birth