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A lesson for the elitists:
- Thread starter BassNeo
- Start date
I was just pointing out, albeit in a slightly flippant way, that analogies between music and other forms of language only go so far.Sorry, but I dont know what you are getting at at all.
I assumed that when people talked about music being a "language," it was accepted to be in a musical context. Like when people refer to jazz improvisers as having a conversation.
The conversation required in your above example is a different one, i.e. a verbal one. Plus, even with this verbal language unless you speak the local one, you might as well be playing a banjo, for all you will be understood.
Anyway, to clarify my own point of view further, aspects of formally taught music, like theory and written notation, exist for good reasons. If there were no reasons for them, then they wouldn't exist at all. Whether to learn about them or not is a purely personal decision, but any such decision to limit learning needs to be seen as just that - limiting.
Firstly, dang man don't talk in such a condescending manner. You might be surprised the amount of "illiterate" players that would play you into the ground.
Well damn, I guess old Pino Palladino better hang it up because he can't read.
Reading is useful for a few things.
1. If you want work where the bass player is required to read notation, you must know how to read notation.
2. The written form can help some people understand music better. This is a personal thing, I believe it depends on how you learn. I started off sight reading, which was neat, then I had no use for it for like 10 years so I dropped off with it. Getting back into it now because I feel I want to dabble in composing and maybe theatre gigs. I learn much more effectively imagining space and patterns and associating them with sound, rather than a buncha dots and lines.
3. If you want to be a composer, as in compose music and have other musicians play it note for note, you'll need to be able to write.
So say you are a busy working bassist that works off of ear and chord charts, you might not think it's worth the time investment learning how to sight read. Bass is sort of unique like that - the melody will be written out, and there will be chord charts, but I think it is not common for a bass line to be written out note by note
Agreed, but the things Vic doesn't realize are:
---He comes from a musical family where he grew up surrounded by it, and that's not the norm for everyone.
---Not everyone has the natural affinity for making music commensurate with their eagerness to learn it.
---People tend to give advice based on their own experiences, and not everyone realizes that the things they do that come super easy to them don't for others.
Some people are more inclined to be able to make music than others, some of us have to work at it, and that's just the way it is. There are things about music that come pretty easily to me, and other things that don't. I have (had) perfect pitch and a great natural sense of rhythm, but making sense out of all the notes to where I could write and perform music didn't come as naturally. If not for reading music when I was a kid, I seriously doubt I could have done it. And I most likely would have to quit once my "rock star sell by" date expired 25 years ago
Vic is trying to do a good thing here, but I think he sometimes forgets that he's Victor Wooten, member of a hugely musical family immersed in it since birth. And I think a lot of you who are using this video as justification for not learning how to read music forget that you're NOT Victor Wooten, member of a hugely musical family immersed in it since birth
Totally agree with you on all points you're making. I feel that sometimes these world class players who say "i don't think about the notes or the scales aren't important" are doing a disservice to beginning and intermediate players, especially players who are looking to take their playing to a new level and are looking to what these guys say for direction. An intermediate player hears that nonsense and thinks "Oh ok if it's good enough for "xxxxx" not to worry about what notes he's playing it should be good enough for me and then they stop building that essential foundation that will someday free them from having to think about the notes and scales and "just play". I've heard this "I don't think about..." line from lots of world class contemporary players.
I'm sure that Pino Palladino has an amazing set of ears that allows him to skirt around having to read. For everyone else who doesn't have that gift or hasn't put the work into developing that skill they have to learn to read or have a foundation in theory.
I bet he knows damn well how to read a chord chart, I'm sure he knows what he can play over a +7 chord vs. a -7, he doesn't just "wing" it.
Everyone has a system, you can't just go at it without having some type of system or knowledge of harmony. That's a total cop out. I would be very surprised if there was someone out there who just "wings" it who doesn't have a system that they apply who will "play me into the ground".
Oh yeah, i'm not saying good players can't read chord charts, that is absolutely essential. I thought knowing what the basic chords were fit into the part where I was talking about understanding music. I was talking strictly about reading, you seem to have read it as "reading and knowing anything at all about the notes"
You don't have to read to know practical theory, your initial post gave off the vibe like you thought it was the only way to learn.
its funny how a lot of people on here choke on to reading music as if it was some kind of golden carrot. Of course you should study and learn as much about your instrument as you can....why not? Of course learn the theory and proper techniques etc. But why does it burn you up that some people can absolutely rip without being "literate?" I don;t have enough digits to count the amazing blues funk soul bass players I have seen around Chicago that just thump and none of them have ever told me they can read ...and I have asked. ...am I'm not in the don't read/get educated crowd...cause I like studyin theory and can read music (albeit slowly). But in my estimation, a large percentage of great electric bass players really don't spend time reading music----so who cares? Do what you want! OK, have a nice weekend
Well good sir, after re-reading my post it would seem I also unfairly zeroed in on the "reading" aspect and ignored you points about theory understanding.
On the original subject of victor, I imagine both he and pino have that similar base framework to go off. Knowing your scales, how the modes work, and a bit about tension and release + chord progessions will take you a long way combined with large amounts of practical application and a good ear
The thing is, there is some stuff you can't learn if you don't know how to read or what if you have to play something you never heard before but you have sheet music ...
Also being music literate is the same thing as being literate in english or whatever other language you speak ... You have access to a lot more knowledge. You can learn many thing just by reading ...
Maybe this is why jazz and classical player thing the EB is juvenile, not sophisticated, loud and without any nuance because the people playing it have no education
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
- 4,433
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- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
For me it's not a question of "Yes, but" but rather "Yes, and." I was a trained Musician with two degrees and a decade of Pro experience when I first met Vic. He was such a remarkable bassist to me I had to learn more, including how he and his brothers learned. I would encourage any aspiring Musician to get The Music Lesson on book or CD and add it to your formal studies. I'm not shy in saying it transformed how I play and teach Music.
I'm not gonna lie, I didn't read the whole thread and someone very well might have stated this between then and here, but after reading the first few posts I think a few people got the wrong message. I think that he meant that starting off it isn't ENTIRELY dependant on lessons and whatnot, just familiarizing yourself with your new "language" in a manner comfortable to you. I don't think he is saying that lessons don't help or not to take them, just that reading and lessons aren't absolutely everything. That's just my $0.02 anyway. 
It's true that when starting out, a lot if us, like Vic started speaking the language before knowing theory or reading. That said, even though you might be a great speaker at age 5 you still go to school and learn the rest. Unless of course you're Victor, who was playing gigs at age six. Haha.
