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A list of pedals that invert?

xed

xed

Dec 8, 2007
534
92
Coastal NC, USA
#1
I'm in the process of getting together my first pedalboard and I've been doing a ton of reading. I've decided that I'm going to use a blender but then that brings up the possibility of phase inversion.

I thought it would be nice to have a thread where we could put together a list of pedals that invert. I imagine it might save a few folks a "gotcha" or two in the future and help with pedal planning.

ok have at it...
 
#3
While I too am a big fan of the phase invert switch, it is not necessarily related to whether any effect inverts the signal. It's easy to make that connection mentally, but the reality is not so simple. I've posted at great length about this, so dig for those posts. :)
 
#5
Yeah, a clean blend is a must in my opinion.

I've been looking at some blenders but the only one I can find is the Xotic (very expensive), and a pedal made by someone/a company in Latvia called Z.cat (1/5th of the price of the xotic, and a way smaller footprint). And the Barge Electronics (or something like that).

If you have any others feel free to post!
 
#12
#14
Spencer! said:
I understand what you're saying, but a blend is still going to be pretty much useless without a phase flip switch. It wouldn't matter as much with time-based effects because their effect comes from shifting the phase, but any blended overdrive or filter is going to sound like crap if it's not phase-coherent to the input.
Click to expand...
We'll just have to agree to disagree. My assertion is that about half the time, IME, the output of the effect was enough different from the input that either (a) phase inversion didn't make an audible improvement, or (b) it actually made matters worse. Or more to the point, my assertion is that we cannot assume or generalize just based on experiences with a couple of very commonly-cloned circuits.
 
#15
bongomania said:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9291919&postcount=3
Click to expand...

Ah well crap; that makes perfect sense. This isn't the first time I've learned something from a post by Cyrus and I doubt it will be the last.

So what this means is that even if someone made a loop/blender with a pot adjustable phase knob so that you had up to 180 degrees of phase control (I've not seen one but who knows) then the best you could do would be to 'correct" the phase for one particular set of effects being "on". As soon as you change something by turning another effect on or an existing one off then you're right back to a crap shoot with regard to the phase so there is no clear cut "solution" when blending.

That being said, it still would be nice to have a pot adjustable phase knob on a blender. A 180 degree switch is better than nothing but it's almost arbitrary. 180 degrees is just playing the odds and shooting for the middle. An adjustable phase knob would be much better but still not bullet proof by any means.
 
#16
xed said:
A 180 degree switch is better than nothing but it's almost arbitrary. 180 degrees is just playing the odds and shooting for the middle. An adjustable phase knob would be much better but still not bullet proof by any means.
Click to expand...

The reality is that it's close enough. You can theorize all day about waveforms and circuit lag, but my experience tells me that a phase switch is good enough to correct the problem 99% of the time. This is why major recording consoles have a phase flop switch on every channel, but not a phase adjuster.
 
#17
You should know better than to think I'm just "theorizing". I put pedals on the scope all the time, and conduct listening tests every day.

An increasing number of high-end multi-channel DI's, preamps, and mixers these days include variable phase control. The only reason it's not already more prevalent is that it's so much easier to make a 180 degree swap circuit, and it's only relatively recently that engineers have started considering the benefits of other-than-180-degree phase adjustment.
 
#18
The only phase inversion issue I've had was when I had an X-Blender and was using an MXR Phase 90. It sounded very weak in the normal setting, but natural in the inverted setting of the X-Blender's phase switch. Any other pedal I used with the X-Blander had no issue.
 
#19
IME, Muff-based and Fuzz Face-based fuzzes don't invert the phase, but the stranger fuzzes (with octave-up, often) like the Fender Blender and the B:Assmaster do.

The Team Awesome Fuzz Machine inverts phase on the CLEAN channel, but the Fuzzed channel not only leaves phase alone, it vastly increases low end. And it is extremely pleasing.

Pedals I have that invert phase:
Fender Blender
Barker B:Assmaster
Vintage MXR Flanger
Half of the TAFuzz Machine

Pedals I have that don't:
Mammoth
Creamy Dreamer (Big Muff)
Blackstone
The useful half of the TAFuzz Machine

Anyone else?
 
#20
bongomania said:
and it's only relatively recently that engineers have started considering the benefits of other-than-180-degree phase adjustment.
Click to expand...

Engineers have long considered the benefits of phase-adjustment; they call it mic placement. But because the comb-filtering in out-of-phase signals is most prevalent at the 180 degree point, the phase flop switch is enough to correct the problem in most cases.
 

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