I'm not sure it is.
Blackface is mostly a USAian thing.
So that giant faction is something like 40,000,000 people out of 7,000,000,000 - or about 1/2 of 1% of the worlds population.
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A proud day for Australia... (another race thread)
- Thread starter Marlat
- Start date
I'm not sure it is.
Blackface is mostly a USAian thing.
So that giant faction is something like 40,000,000 people out of 7,000,000,000 - or about 1/2 of 1% of the worlds population.
D
This is a teachable moment for me (being the student: I'm asking for and giving you the opportunity to straighten me out, if indeed I need it.
I'll take you at your word.. you had no contention with the two guys in the picture, or the company (airline). You just got educated as to the cultural climate in Australia, by your own word.
Here's my honest-to-God, no sarcasam or barb intended question: If those statements were true, why make such a big deal out of it? You were pretty determined to make anyone who contested that this was "blackface with bad intent" see it your way. Did you run roughshod over your lack of knowledge of Australian culture in order to be offended?
I'm not implying that I know any more about their culture, I don't.
I'm sure you think I'm wrong when I see posts in a thread like this and think, "that's a stretch, they are working awfully hard to be a victim", but that's what I think sometimes when I see such ire raised at what's basically a non-issue.
Or, when I see an issue which only HAPPENS to involve different (fill in the blank: races, sexual orientations, religions, etc) and the real issue is of two dumbasses doing something dumb, but it is completely eclipsed and the issue is suddenly all about (previously filled in blank), and then I have someone shaking a finger in my face (figuratively) and shouting "SEE THERE!! People like you hurting/discriminating/offending people like me! Bad, bad people like you!"
Show me where I'm wrong, and I'll be the first to admit it and apologize.
Toaster, this was my original reaction to the OP:
The picture is a shocking thing to see, and I tried to see where the parties are coming from. As I always do. I got fired up when the veiled insults and condescending posts started flying in.
I never said that it was "blackface with bad intent." I know that the intent wasn't bad; I posted that a few times. I am not working hard to be a victim; I just can't help the reaction that certain things garner, though. As i said before, this ain't just me; this is the kind of reaction that an image of a white guy painted jet black will garner from just about any African-American that you come across.
I believe you have been reading something into my posts other than what I was posting. Which is why I kept saying that you are "way off base."
EDIT: I am adding one more thing. There is a point of contention with the airline, though not a huge one. I would think for a company that has dealings with the rest of the world would know better than to post a picture like that on the world wide web. It caused enough reaction for them to pull it down, though.
The picture is a shocking thing to see, and I tried to see where the parties are coming from. As I always do. I got fired up when the veiled insults and condescending posts started flying in.
I never said that it was "blackface with bad intent." I know that the intent wasn't bad; I posted that a few times. I am not working hard to be a victim; I just can't help the reaction that certain things garner, though. As i said before, this ain't just me; this is the kind of reaction that an image of a white guy painted jet black will garner from just about any African-American that you come across.
I believe you have been reading something into my posts other than what I was posting. Which is why I kept saying that you are "way off base."
EDIT: I am adding one more thing. There is a point of contention with the airline, though not a huge one. I would think for a company that has dealings with the rest of the world would know better than to post a picture like that on the world wide web. It caused enough reaction for them to pull it down, though.
It took you a couple pages to calm down, but you did get somewhat hostile towards those who disagreed with you. At that point, it looked more to me like you were trying to be offended and then even more offended when someone didn't see the picture as offensive.
More use of the word offended/offensive than the Pittsburgh Steelers OL during a game.
-Mike
More use of the word offended/offensive than the Pittsburgh Steelers OL during a game.
-Mike
Yeah, I can see that.
My apologies to you, Mike, but I still don't take too kindly to thinly veiled insults and being talked down to
D
Fair Dinkum, as they say in Australia. Can you understand where I am coming from? I personally try hard not to judge anyone by their race or ethnic group. I will judge them by choices they make, attitudes they possess and express, and the content of their character, as everyone should. I'm offended when people try to place the responsibility of man's inhumanity to man on my shoulders, and I know you know what I'm talking about. Not saying you do it, but plenty of people do, and I"m not going to take "you must be like this because you are white" and more than you are going to accept "you must be like this because you are black" (fill in the "this" with any stereotype you can imagine). Neither of us should accept it.
I apologize for my abrasive posts. (extending my hand) Are we alright?
But hey, this is how dudes are. We say how we feel, someone gets pissed, we argue and maybe fight, then everyone calms down, we have a beer or three, then we're all friends again.
-Mike
-Mike
'Sall good. Sorry for mine as well.
What did I say that made you feel this way?
I would like to understand where you are coming from, I just want to get a better idea of what it is.
D
I'll admit I vented on you.. it's more of a cumulative thing... nothing in the world can be fun, just fooling around, or even if it has a good message.. it's gotta be racisim.
I posted in another thread today concerning the playing of a Patty Smith song with the "n-word". I understand that calling someone that is offensive. I don't use the word myself. I have in the past, full disclosure. I grew up in the south in the 60's and 70's. But when I turn on the TV, and Blazing saddles is on, and the very point which makes the movie funny and ALSO so clearly makes a point at the foolishness of racisim, the repeated use of the "n-word" is censored, in my opinion we've gone too far. Same with this thread. Couple of guys halfway around the world dress up like their Rugby hero, and it can't just be about two guys having fun.
Hey, why can't we all just get along?
Out of context and imputing motives is all well and good for someone who wants to wax as insulted and belittled, but there's a fine legacy of really high-class actors who have put on full face makeup and not just green or yellow or even white.
I'm not talking about street mimes here or the girl who was green in a Star Trek episode - but really some fine actors.
Some were rather recent and one of my most favorite operas is Othello, with Luciano Pavoratti who sang in blackface as a black man in the play.
The list is long, and yes - some did it for the yucks and laughs, but most do it for either a juxtaposition of the arcane-ness of the situation or as a social statement that somehow people are perceived as being different for good or bad.
That last statement may raise some eyebrows, but I know people of every race with whom I do not want to be seen in public with nor consider as a friend. So - let's get straight here - as much as race is not a value to be judged, it's the actual person and their intents that need to be examined, and in the case of national or international insensitivity - well, that just happens.
Take your finger and draw imaginary circle at your temple like is done in the US to show that you think someone is crazy - and make that gesture in Germany and you [DEL]might[/DEL] will probably get shot.
So? Context is important.
Let me try to list those of modern time that wore black makeup by highlighting them, if that's not offensive to anyone that is. I'm sure I missed some of the latter names in black face - but I don't know everybody on this list.
I wondered why Flip Wilson and a few other AE actors were in black face - but there was artistic content in it, so I guess it's what they wanted to do.
I'm not talking about street mimes here or the girl who was green in a Star Trek episode - but really some fine actors.
Some were rather recent and one of my most favorite operas is Othello, with Luciano Pavoratti who sang in blackface as a black man in the play.
The list is long, and yes - some did it for the yucks and laughs, but most do it for either a juxtaposition of the arcane-ness of the situation or as a social statement that somehow people are perceived as being different for good or bad.
That last statement may raise some eyebrows, but I know people of every race with whom I do not want to be seen in public with nor consider as a friend. So - let's get straight here - as much as race is not a value to be judged, it's the actual person and their intents that need to be examined, and in the case of national or international insensitivity - well, that just happens.
Take your finger and draw imaginary circle at your temple like is done in the US to show that you think someone is crazy - and make that gesture in Germany and you [DEL]might[/DEL] will probably get shot.
So? Context is important.
Let me try to list those of modern time that wore black makeup by highlighting them, if that's not offensive to anyone that is. I'm sure I missed some of the latter names in black face - but I don't know everybody on this list.
- AC
Roy Acuff [1]
Eddie Albert in On Your Toes (1939)
Fred Allen, in vaudeville[citation needed]
Ant & Dec, as Bernice & Patti[2]
Fred Armisen, impersonating U.S. President Barack Obama on Saturday Night Live in 2008 and 2009[3]
Louis Armstrong, as Zulu King during 1949's New Orleans Mardi Gras[4]
Clarence Ashley[5]
Fred Astaire in Swing Time (1936)[6]
Gene Autry[5]
Dan Aykroyd in Trading Places (1983)[7]
Marcus "Buff" Bagwell while performing for World Championship Wrestling[8]
Josephine Baker [9]
Bananarama in I Want You Back video[citation needed]
Ethel Barrymore in the play Scarlet Sister Mary [10]
Billy Barty in Roman Scandals (1933)[11] and Rabbit Test (1978)
Noah Beery in Golden Dawn (1930)
Ed Begley, in vaudeville[citation needed]
Jack Benny, in vaudeville[citation needed]
Milton Berle in Always Leave Them Laughing (1949)
Michael Ian Black in an episode of Stella
Jack Black in Be Kind Rewind (2008)
Beno Blachut in Otello
Robert Blake in Mokey (1942)
Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band
Eddie Bravo, as his "Quatoof" character
Rory Bremner, impersonating Sir Trevor Macdonald
Norman Brooks
Frank Brower[12]
Joe E. Brown in Daring Young Man (1942)
John Bunny, in vaudeville
Andrés Bustamante - During World Cup 2010 ads for Telmex.
George Burns[5]
Richard Burton, in a 1955 stage production of Othello
Butterbeans and Susie[13]
James Cagney in Here Comes the Navy (1934)
Cantinflas
Eddie Cantor [12]
Johnny Carson, in a 1976 Tonight Show sketch
Dave Chappelle in the second lost episode of Chappelle's Show
Charley Chase
John Cleese briefly in the Monty Python's Flying Circus episode "Archaeology Today" and as one of The Three Wise Men in Monty Python's Life of Brian.
George M. Cohan[citation needed]
Chester Conklin[citation needed]
Charles Correll[13]
Joan Crawford in Torch Song (1953)
Bing Crosby [9], in Dream House (1932), Mississippi (1935), Holiday Inn (1942), Dixie (1943), and Here Come the Waves (1944)
Billy Crystal, whenever impersonating Sammy Davis, Jr. and in the "Negro Leagues" sketch on SNL
Gene Cunningham in Forbidden Zone (1980) as Ugh-Fudge Bwana
Anthony Cumia, impersonating OJ Simpson in his former band Rotgut's music video "Gonna Electric Shock OJ"
José Cura in Otello
[edit] DG
D-Generation X members Triple H, Road Dogg Jesse James, Bad Ass Billy Gunn, and X-Pac during their parody of the rival WWF stable Nation of Domination on the July 6, 1998 episode of Raw
Rosemary DeCamp, in Yankee Doodle Dandy (1942)
Robert De Niro in Hi, Mom! (1970)
Willem Dafoe in the play "Route 1 & 9 (The Last Act)"
Dan Dailey in You're My Everything (1949)
Ted Danson [14]
Frankie Darro in Up in the Air (1940)
Doris Day in I'll See You in My Dreams (1951)
Marion Davies in Going Hollywood (1933) and Operator 13 (1934)
Philip Davies in The Black and White Minstrel Show and Newsnight
Tommy Davidson in Bamboozled (2000)
Joan Davis in Show Business (1944) and If You Knew Susie (1948)
Sammy Davis, Jr.[9]
Mario del Monaco in Otello
Thomas Dilward [12]
Neil Diamond in The Jazz Singer (1980)
George Washington Dixon [12]
Pontus Djanaieff[citation needed]
Lew Dockstader[12]
Placido Domingo in Otello
Morton Downey[citation needed]
Roma Downey, in the Touched by an Angel episode "Black Like Monica"
Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder (2008)
Irene Dunne in Show Boat (1936)
Jimmy Durante [9]
Cliff Edwards[citation needed]
Julian Eltinge[citation needed]
George "Honey Boy" Evans
Douglas Fairbanks in Martyrs of the Alamo (1915)
Fernandel in Monsieur Hector (1940)
Dusty Fletcher[citation needed], in vaudeville
George Formby
Edwin Forrest[15]
Dai Francis (singer)[citation needed]
Harry 'Singin' Sam' Frankel
William Frawley, in vaudeville and in Harmony Lane (1935)
Willie Fritsch in Die Boxerbraut (1926)
Judy Garland in Everybody Sing (1938), Babes in Arms (1939) and Babes on Broadway (1941)
Billy Gilbert in The Rounders (1914)
Savion Glover in Bamboozled (2000)
Whoopi Goldberg, impersonating Bert Williams in the special Night of 100 Stars II (1985)
Freeman Gosden[13]
The Goodies[citation needed]
Betty Grable, in Happy Days (1929), Coney Island (1943), and The Dolly Sisters (1945)
Stewart Granger in The Man in Grey (1943)
Christopher Guest in the "Negro Leagues" sketch on SNL
[edit] HL
Sam Hague[12]
Huntz Hall in Crazy Over Horses (1951)
Oliver Hardy in The Honorable Mr. Buggs (1927), Galloping Ghosts (1928), and Pardon Us (1931)
Otis Harlan in The Dixie Handicap (1924)
Will Hay
Darrell Hammond, impersonating Jesse Jackson on Saturday Night Live in 2006
Ed Harris in Masked & Anonymous (2003)
June Haver in The Dolly Sisters (1945)
Grace Hayes
Peter Lind Hayes
Ted Healy, in vaudeville
Bob Height [12]
Hugh Herbert in Hollywood Hotel (1937)
Charles Hicks [12]
Benny Hill, impersonating Idi Amin, Mr. T and in a 1981 sketch spoofing Roots
Paris Hilton in an episode of The Simple Life
Ernest Hogan[13]
William Holden in Father Is a Bachelor (1950)
Billie Holiday [9]
Libby Holman in The Little Show
Lou Holtz[12]
Bob Hope, in vaudeville
Anthony Hopkins in Othello (1981)
C. Thomas Howell in Soul Man (1986)
Walter Huston in Yankee Doodle Dandy (1942)
Betty Hutton in Somebody Loves Me (1952)
Eric Idle in one episode of Monty Python's Flying Circus
Kip James, professional wrestler, in a promo cut on Team 3D during a TNA iMPACT! episode that aired May 25, 2006
Ken Jeong, in the Community episode "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons"
George Jessel[5]
Al Jolson [9]
Terry Jones in some episodes of Monty Python's Flying Circus
Louis Jordan [9]
Buster Keaton, in vaudeville[13] in the short film Neighbors (1920), possibly with satiric intent: he alternates in and out of blackface, receiving a very different reaction from a policeman. [16] Also in The Playhouse (1921) and College (1927)
Gene Kelly, in vaudeville
Jamie Kennedy in an episode of Blowin' Up and in various skits of The Jamie Kennedy Experiment
Billy Kersands[12]
Jimmy Kimmel, as Karl Malone and Oprah Winfrey on The Man Show
Harmony Korine, appeared in blackface and danced in minstrel style in a short film made with Jefferson Hack.
Robert Klein, in The Landlord (1970)
Chuck Knipp, who uses blackface and drag when portraying his character Shirley Q. Liquor
Jane Krakowski, in two episodes of 30 Rock
Wallace King[12]
Hedy Lamarr in White Cargo (1942)
Harry Langdon
Murray Langston in Night Patrol (1984)
Mario Lanza in Serenade (1956)
Joey Lawrence in an episode of Gimme a Break!
Hugh Laurie in an episode of Jeeves and Wooster
Stan Laurel in Pardon Us (1931)
Janet Leigh in Walking My Baby Back Home (1953)
Francis Leon[12]
Eddie Leonard[13]
Chris Lilley in Summer Heights High and Angry Boys
Max Linder in Be My Wife (1921)
Walter Long in The Birth of a Nation (1915)
Sophia Loren in Aida (1953)
Peter Lorre in the play Weisse Fracht[17]
Bessie Love in The Girl in the Show (1929)
Myrna Loy in Ham and Eggs at the Front (1927)
Nick Lucas
Sam Lucas[12]
[edit] MR
Marilyn Manson, during the Grotesque Burlesque Tour.
Pigmeat Markham [12]
Dean Martin, in Ocean's Eleven (1960)
Giovanni Martinelli in Otello
Marcello Mastroianni in Miss Arizona (1987)
The Marx Brothers, in vaudeville and in A Day at the Races (1937)
Rob McElhenney in the It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia episode "Dee Reynolds: Shaping America's Youth"
Lauritz Melchior in Otello
Carlos Mencia in various skits on Mind of Mencia
Sarah Miles in Lady Caroline Lamb (1972)
Emmett Miller [12], an important influence on early country stars like Jimmie Rodgers, Bob Wills
Flournoy E. Miller[13]
Irvin C. Miller[13]
Mark McKinney as recurring character Mississippi Gary on The Kids in the Hall.
Clayton McMichen [1]
Bill Monroe [1]
Constance Moore in Show Business (1944)
Tim Moore, in vaudeville and burlesque
Chester Morris in After Midnight with Boston Blackie (1943)
Dennis Morgan in Kisses for Breakfast (1941), The Time, the Place and the Girl (1946) and My Wild Irish Rose (1947)
Frank Morgan in Dimples (1936)
Moran and Mack[13]
Dermot Mulroney in Kansas City (1996)
Paul Muni in Seven Faces (1929)
George Murphy in vaudeville and in Show Business (1944)
Billy Murray, early 1900s recording star, with Al G. Field Minstrels before recording career began
Carroll O'Connor in a 1975 episode of All in the Family
Donald O'Connor in The Merry Monahans (1944), Mister Big (1943), Walking My Baby Back Home (1953)
George Osbourne
Michael Palin in A Fish Called Wanda (1988) and the Monty Python's Flying Circus episode "The Money Programme".
Adam Parfrey in What Is It? (2005)
Larry Parks in The Jolson Story (1946) and Jolson Sings Again (1949)
Mandy Patinkin in The Wild Party
Pat Paulsen in a 1974 guest spot on The Merv Griffin Show and Night Patrol (1984)
Luciano Pavarotti in Otello
Richard Pelham [12]
"Rowdy" Roddy Piper while wrestling for the World Wrestling Federation
Dana Plato in an episode of Diff'rent Strokes
Dick Powell in Hard to Get (1938)
Eleanor Powell in Honolulu (1939)
Ma Rainey, in vaudeville
John Raitt, in vaudeville and in Minstrel Man (1944)
Michael Rapaport in Bamboozled (2000)
Martha Raye in College Holiday (1936) and Artists and Models (1937)
Thomas D. Rice [12]
Ralph Richardson in The Volunteer (1943)
Harry Richman
Marjorie Reynolds in Holiday Inn (1942)
Cliff Richard in Summer Holiday (1963) and Wonderful Life (1964)
Michael Richards in Whoops Apocalypse (1986) and in the Seinfeld episode "The Wife"
Bill Robinson, in vaudeville
Jimmie Rodgers [1]
Will Rogers, in vaudeville and in In Old Kentucky (1935)
Mickey Rooney in Boys Town (1938), Babes in Arms (1939), and Babes on Broadway (1941)
Shirley Ross in Manhattan Melodrama (1934) and Kisses for Breakfast (1941)
Benny Rubin[12]
Gary Russell in The Famous Five (1970s TV series) and Zagreus (audio drama)
Peggy Ryan in Mister Big (1943)
[edit] SZ
Arthur Sales
Horatio Sanz, impersonating Aaron Neville on SNL in 2007.
Ramblin' Tommy Scott[18]
Chloë Sevigny in Manderlay (2005)
Michael Showalter in an episode of Stella
Frank Sinatra, in the Major Bowes short The Big Minstrel (1935) and Ocean's Eleven (1960)
Sarah Silverman in an episode of The Sarah Silverman Program
Red Skelton, in vaudeville
John Slattery, in the Mad Men episode "My Old Kentucky Home"
Grace Slick while performing with Jefferson Airplane on The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour
Bessie Smith[9]
Hobart Smith[5]
David Spade in a skit on The Showbiz Show with David Spade
Sam Sparro, in his music video for "Pink Cloud"
Jeffree Star
Howard Stern, impersonating Clarence Thomas and Ted Danson
The Three Stooges in Uncivil War Birds (1946)
James Stewart, in It's a Wonderful World (1939)
Ben Stiller in Zoolander (2001)
Fred Stone
Stu Stone in an episode of Blowin' Up
Eva Tanguay
Elizabeth Taylor in Young Toscanini (1988)
Shirley Temple in The Littlest Rebel (1935)
Lawrence Tibbett in The Emperor Jones
Scott Thompson in an episode of The Kids in the Hall
Arthur Tracy, in vaudeville
Fred Travalena, impersonating Eddie Murphy on Live with Regis and Kathie Lee
Sophie Tucker[19]
Sonny Tufts in Here Come the Waves (1944)
Tracey Ullman as Shaneesha Turner on Tracey Takes On...
The Vagabonds in People Are Talking (1946)
Van & Schenck
Lupe Vélez in Redhead from Manhattan (1943)
George E Vinson[20]
Ben Vereen has performed tributes to Bert Williams, by donning blackface and singing and dancing in Williams' style
Jon Vickers in Otello
Monica Vitti in L'eclisse (1962)
David Wain in an episode of Stella
George Walker[13]
Ethel Waters, in vaudeville
H. Vernon Watson (performing under the sobriquet Nosmo King)
John Wayne in The Spoilers (1942)
Clifton Webb in vaudeville and in The Little Show
Weber & Fields
Virginia Weidler in Babes on Broadway (1941) and Born to Sing (1942)
Mae West, in vaudeville
Wheeler & Woolsey in Diplomaniacs (1933) and in vaudeville
Billy Whitlock [12]
James Whitmore in Black Like Me (1964)
Gene Wilder in Silver Streak (1976)
Bert Williams [12]
Hank Williams [9]
Bob Wills [1]
Flip Wilson in the 1980 TV special Uptown: A Tribute to the Apollo Theater
Tom Wilson[12]
Jane Wyatt in Kisses for Breakfast (1941)
Renato Zanelli in Otello
I wondered why Flip Wilson and a few other AE actors were in black face - but there was artistic content in it, so I guess it's what they wanted to do.
Oh...so you're a closeted racist!
I kid, I kid. It's just too big of an issue when you put something like that up for all the world to see. Like I said man, if a very close friend did this, I would have a hard time not rolling over in laughter.
AFAIK, the "N" word is on par with four-letter words at this point. It's just a vulgar word, IMO, regardless of the intent. Blazing Saddles is one of my all-time favorite movies, but I have to kind of grin and bear it at some points
Rugby players are demi-gods here....those two fans were paying homage to a hero, not ridiculing a black man.
The Jacksons thing was a dig at Michael Jackson's plastic surgery, which was often a subject of comedy here. When it went to air I found it funny and didn't understand Harry Connick's reaction....he was REALLY upset. Knowing how Blackface is viewed in America, I can now understand why. Where Blackface is offensive, that clip would have to be a text book example of everything that sucks about it.
Bamboozled was a great movie, difficult as it was to watch. Very poignant, and very real as to how it is in the entertainment industry.
Robert Downey Jr's role in Tropic Thunder was hilarious; that, Pavarotti as Othello, the SNL skits, at a lot of the stuff on this list featured people who painted their faces brown, and actually looked somewhat like black people. I saw this list earlier today, and was a tad confused. The vast majority of this stuff, to me, wouldn't qualify as blackface
I would hope by now that point is clear to everyone in the thread.
fingerbun said:
Yes, when I saw that pic in the article, I cringed.
If those two guys were made up to look more "realistic", you would find the pic less offensive? That's interesting. You're right though - visually, it would be quite different.
Yeah, I would. I don't know if it would be offensive to me at all, matter of fact. Jet black faces just look like a copy+paste of a minstrel show, though.
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