• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

A question about modes

Feb 14, 2017
3,831
2,997
so lets just use the key of c for example

C d e f g a b c is C ionian

D e f g a b c d is D dorian correct?

Is that Mode called D dorian? Or is it the dorian mode of the c scale? Or are you just sposed to know by D dorian that ur in the key of c bc d is the second step of the c major scale?

Second question are the mode "box shapes" the same for both major and minor keys?
 
  • Like
Reactions: static0verdrive
Basically what are the modes of a minor key? Does it follow the same patterns as major key modes
Yes but...

The modes are the same for natural minor. When you start building modes from harmonic and melodic minor things get weird. Those versions of the minor scale can be looked at as only being used over the 5 chord but if you build modes from them you get very interesting sounding strings of notes
 
Yes but...

The modes are the same for natural minor. When you start building modes from harmonic and melodic minor things get weird. Those versions of the minor scale can be looked at as only being used over the 5 chord but if you build modes from them you get very interesting sounding strings of notes

Also harmonic minor and melodic minor (jazz melodic minor) scales are not within the major/ minor key framework.

A few things that are important to learn about the major modes are:

They flatten or raise certain degrees of the major scale
Are composed entirely of notes from the relative major
Each have a different string of tone semitone sequences
Can correspond to certain written chords (Ie. C Maj7#4 is C Lydian)
Are very useful for soloing through key changes if you can identify a "tonal center"
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reedt2000
so lets just use the key of c for example
C d e f g a b c is C ionian. And D e f g a b c d is D dorian correct? Is that Mode called D dorian? Or is it the dorian mode of the c scale? Or are you just sposed to know by D dorian that ur in the key of c bc d is the second step of the c major scale?
Very good question. Yes D, E, F, G, A, B, C is called D Dorian. It is not the D major scale as that is D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#. D Dorian has a F and a C or you have flatted the 3rd and 7th degree of the D major scale to get D Dorian. You are on the right track D Dorian is unique unto itself.
Second question are the mode "box shapes" the same for both major and minor keys?
Another good question. No the box shapes for a major scale, or mode is different than the box shape for a minor scale or mode. Hang on; we love to make major and minor scales and then the modes of those scales complicated and they are really very simple. Most mode strings will probably run for 75 to 100 posts, all saying what modes are and all going about it differently. We love to make it complicated. I'll try and make it simple.

Modes are the moods of a scale. Let's not get off into modes of the melodic minor or the pentatonic scales right now. Lets first understand how modes of the major scale are used. And that brings us to the question; why use modes? Answer IMO - modes are for when you want to play melodically. Melodically as in a solo or melodically as in a bass line. If you do not plan on taking solo breaks or adding non chord tones into your bass lines - right now - you do not need to get off into modes right now.

But someone has told you about modes and you now want to know more about them.

C Ionian and then the same notes started on the D will give you D Dorian as we spoke of above. That is called relative modes. There is another way of looking at this and this way is called the parallel mode way. Relative keeps the same notes and changes the key. Parallel keeps the same key and changes the notes. They both get to the same spot, they just take different roads getting there. Read that again. And walks us into the box shape for a major thing is different than the box shape for a minor thing - scale, mode, arpeggio, whatever. Let's get why out of the way first. Natural minor takes the major scale and flats the 3, 6 & 7. So as Natural minor is home base for all minor scales that flatting of the 3, 6 & 7 becomes a factor in what is major and what is minor. Or put another way if it is minor there will be a b3 involved. If it is major there will be a natural 3 involved.

Some of the posts you may receive will talk in Relative mode and some will talk in Parallel mode and most do not identify which way. So it does get confusing.

I left Relative modes years ago and have used parallel modes ever since. And yes I use just one box for them all. The box I use is the major scale box.

Major scale box showing scale degree numbers and the root note on the 4th string. Place the box's R over your root note and gather the spelling for what you want from within the box.
Code:
G~~|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D~~|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A~~|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E~~|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string
The spelling for the Major modes are:
C Ionian R-2-3-4-5-6-7 same as the major scale
C Lydian R-2-3-#4-5-6-7 Change one note
C Mixolydian R-2-3-4-5-6-b7 Change one note

The spelling for the minor modes are:
C Aeolian R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 same as the natural minor scale
C Dorian R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 change one note
C Phrygian R-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 Add the b2
C Locrian R-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7 yes here you change two notes.

Now the one thing that drops between the chairs. Each mode has a mood.

  • Ionian = up beat and happy. So does the major scale, why not just play tonal and use the major scale?
  • Lydian = is so close to the major scale I seldom use it, however if you will add a b7 to that #4 then you do get a unique kinda half way between Ionian and Mixolydian sound. It's called Lydian dominant.
  • Mixolydian = a latin sound. Is used quite a bit over a dominant seven chord, however, I do not recommend changing modes over each chord. That will end up changing the mood of the song several times and IMO we should decide on the mood we want and then use the mode that gives that mood for the entire piece.

  • Aeolian = is supposed to give a sad sound I do not hear sad, I do hear minor sound if you want a minor sound help your self to Aeolian. Here again I raise the question why not just stay tonal and use the natural minor scale?
  • Dorian = an attractive minor sound. If I am going minor Dorian is my mode of choice.
  • Phrygian - Middle eastern, if you want Middle Eastern, Phrygian is your mode.
  • Locrian - dark and tense. Locrian is best used over a vamp of the m7b5 chord.
Now to hear all that you have to have a modal vamp droning for the modal mood to develop. Begs the question, are the guys going to be droning a modal vamp for your modal efforts? Here is some more of the story. Modal Harmony

Because you asked, that's modes 101. Don't waste your practice time right now on modes, there are other things you need to be working on. Copy and paste this string in your study binder for later. You will receive a lot of really good information, but, it will take some study time to digest it all. Don't let modes rob your study time - right now.
 
Last edited:
The first question you should always ask when learning a mode (or any new concept, really) is this: what songs can I play with this new knowledge? Because if you can't apply a music theory concept to the actual music you're learning, then it's not really much good, is it?

Most of the songs that I know and love are in major keys. A substantial minority are in minor keys. I can only think of a very few songs I know that are truly "modal."

You mentioned Dorian mode. I can think of some examples from the jazz genre. Miles Davis was a big fan and used it in songs like "So What." What are some of your favorite Dorian songs? What about the other modes, can you think of any famous songs you know and love for each mode?
 
I just learned some things at my lesson yesterday and had a bunch of questions.

we started because I was learning a jam in a phish song "Gotta jiboo" which is in E mixloadyian and just kind of went from there.
 
we started because I was learning a jam in a phish song "Gotta jiboo" which is in E mixloadyian and just kind of went from there.

E Mixolydian is one way to think about this song.

Another, perhaps simpler, explanation is that "Gotta Jibbo" is in the key of E Major, and like the majority of rock/blues/funk/jam songs in E Major, it makes use of "blue notes" outside the E Major key signature. Commonly used blue notes include the b3, b5, and b7. In the key of E Major, these popular blue notes would be G, Bb, and D. Can you hear Phish using some or all of these blue notes in the song?

No student of rock should ever be surprised to hear the notes G, Bb, or D in an E Major rock song. Likewise we should not be in the least bit alarmed if the chord progression includes a few chords that don't strictly "fit" the key signature, like the incredibly common chord progression D Major, A Major, E Major for example. This is all a very normal part of how rock music "works."

An analogy is in spoken language such as English. You can often tell the difference between an advanced student vs a native speaker based on how "perfect" they sound. The advanced student might have perfect grammar and vocabulary, and yet not talk like normal people actually talk. The native speaker on the other hand will use slang, swear words, pop culture references, internet memes, text speak etc. to get their point across.

Knowing that you can play D Natural instead of D Sharp in a rock song is kind of like knowing you can say "hey, what's up?" instead of "hello sir, how are you today?" in a casual and friendly conversation.
 
so this confused me even greatly. I thought E mixloadyian is in the Key of A?

I do not hear "Gotta Jibbo" as being in the key of A. That would imply to me that A is the "home base" or "tonal center" of the chord progression. But to my ear, I hear E as the tonal center, so I would describe this song's tonality as "rock song in E."

I don't think however that it's totally crazy to think of it in A Major. An argument could be made that it is sometimes useful to think of it that way. Your instructor may be trying to illustrate a certain concept about how the modes relate to the major scale. I think that is totally valid and important to understand.

But at the end of the day, if you want to sound like Phish when you play this song, think "typical jam-rock song in E" not "Mary Had a Little Lamb in A Major." You will get more mileage on this song using your favorite E Mixolydian, E pentatonic, and E blues scale licks and riffs, as opposed to pop/folk/nursery-rhyme vocabulary in A Major.
 
Last edited:
...at the end of the day, if you want to sound like Phish when you play this song, think "E Rock" not "Mary Had a Little Lamb in A Major."

Yeah. Your teacher may not have really covered this aspect, but rock is generally based on blues progressions and a blues progression, the ole "I-IV-V" has 3 dominant chords. There is no major scale that has 3 dominant chords, so you can't sort out rock tunes using conventional diatonic harmony/theory.

So I warned you about getting too caught up, but my own varied opinion is that blues should have its own completely separate method of analysis.

But ask your teacher about how to sort out blues and whatnot...
 
interesting so the dominant chords in jiboo are A E D?

Well having listened to this song, it's not a blues. Just a two chord jam for the most part. Probably in E Mixolydian like your teacher told you.

So like I said before. Don't think about it too much. Just play what your teacher said and let him teach you. If you think about modes too much it's gonna confuse the hell out of you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Whousedtoplay
Well having listened to this song, it's not a blues. Just a two chord jam for the most part. Probably in E Mixolydian like your teacher told you.

So like I said before. Don't think about it too much. Just play what your teacher said and let him teach you. If you think about modes too much it's gonna confuse the hell out of you.

Yeah, due to that constant E / D chord progression, I would go with E Mixolydian - the fifth mode of the A major scale.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HolmeBass