A question about modes

[static0verdrive]

so lets just use the key of c for example

C d e f g a b c is C ionian

D e f g a b c d is D dorian correct?

Is that Mode called D dorian? Or is it the dorian mode of the c scale? Or are you just sposed to know by D dorian that ur in the key of c bc d is the second step of the c major scale?

Second question are the mode "box shapes" the same for both major and minor keys?

IMHO, everything you wrote is pretty much acceptable - that is D Dorian (which is the Dorian mode of the C scale). You're saying "or" but then in my mind saying the same thing. Regarding that D Dorian, as you may know already, the key signature on staff contains no flats or sharps because it's notes from C Major only. C Dorian would contain only notes from B Major (aka Ionian), starting on C.

 

[drewphishesp]

so how about this one:



It says Key of E so I suppose B mixloadyian would sound good over it?

but others say it is in B but theres no A in the B scale?

 

[HolmeBass]

so is gotta jiboo in E major or A major?

If it is truly modal, I would say neither. It is in E mixolydian. The key signature will look like A major, but there is a distinction between key signature and key of a song. Others will probably disagree with this, but it is internally consistent and generally useful for communication between musicians.

 

[beatnut]

The most helpful thing I heard about modes was in the middle of a video by Ted Greene. He asks what does Dorian mean and points out that it is a minor-type scale with a natural 6th (i..e B natural if you're in D dorian). That's what gives it it's sound and character. Likewise the other modes have their unique flavour.

It is all about sound, but having said that, now you know about modes it's really best to go the whole distance and learn all the rest about harmony and how all the scales, modes, chords, progressions etc fit in and how they relate to each other.

Here's the video:

 

[mambo4]

for someone first learning about keys and modes
The most important illusion to burst
is the false idea that if you know a song's key (or mode)
you can magically play along by simply playing that scale

in practice ,the majority of rock / pop songs in a given key
have accidentals and 'wrong' notes and 'wrong' chords for the key
so simply finding the key and wailing on the scale is not enough

learn the chords
support the chord progression
with chord tones, passing tones, and appropriate rhythmic choices
that's how you do it

 

[Mushroo]

If it is truly modal, I would say neither. It is in E mixolydian. The key signature will look like A major, but there is a distinction between key signature and key of a song. Others will probably disagree with this, but it is internally consistent and generally useful for communication between musicians.

Indeed.

Notice the key signature of 3 sharps.

Another perfectly valid approach to notating this song might be to use a key signature of 4 sharps (E Major). This has the advantage of communicating at a glance that the tonal center is E, but the disadvantage that it requires more ink to notate all the D naturals.

 

[drewphishesp]

isnt thre sharps F#?

 

[Mushroo]

isnt thre sharps F#?

Yes, you are exactly correct, great observation!

The key of A Major and the key of F# Minor both share the key signature of 3 sharps (F#, C#, and G#).

Music theory nerds say that F# Minor is the "relative minor" of A Major, and that A Major is the "relative major" of F# Minor.

"Gotta Jibbo" isn't in F# Minor or A Major, however, so this discussion is a pretty good example of how music theory concepts can distract us from actually learning the song.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Another perfectly valid approach to notating this song might be to use a key signature of 4 sharps (E Major).

Hmmm. If you do that, then what tells you that the bassline comes from E Mixolydian? Notating it in A makes musical sense to me.

 

[Spin Doctor]

this discussion is a pretty good example of how music theory concepts can distract us from actually learning the song.

Really good point...

 

[Mushroo]

Hmmm. If you do that, then what tells you that the bassline comes from E Mixolydian? Notating it in A makes musical sense to me.

I would perform the exact same notes whether the D Natural is indicated in the key signature or using accidentals. When performing from standard notation, it is not necessary to wonder "what mode is this?" It is only necessary to perform the notes that are written on the page.

However I do see that the arranger in this case has added a helpful note about E Mixolydian, to avoid any confusion.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I would perform the exact same notes whether the D Natural is indicated in the key signature or using accidentals. When performing from standard notation, it is not necessary to wonder "what mode is this?" It is only necessary to perform the notes that are written on the page.

However I do see that the arranger in this case has added a helpful note about E Mixolydian, to avoid any confusion.

Yeah I get that. You can write anything in any key and make your point known with accidentals. But what makes musical sense is the point I'm driving at. I don't get writing something in E major, then adding accidentals to make the bassline something that looks like A major.

 

[Mushroo]

Yeah I get that. You can write anything in any key and make your point known with accidentals. But what makes musical sense is the point I'm driving at. I don't get writing something in E major, then adding accidentals to make the bassline something that looks like A major.

Experienced rock/blues/funk/jazz sight-readers should never be surprised to see a D natural accidental in the key of E.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Experienced rock/blues/funk/jazz sight-readers should never be surprised to see a D natural accidental in the key of E.

Why not? I mean... Why do that? I just don't see the point. The fact that the original transcriber didn't transcribe in in E, then add accidentals, gives me some feeling that writing it in A is the more "conventional" approach.

My only point is that I like to communicate in a way that makes musical sense. YMMV.

 

[Mushroo]

Why not? I mean... Why do that? I just don't see the point. The fact that the original transcriber didn't transcribe in in E, then add accidentals, gives me some feeling that writing it in A is the more "conventional" approach.

My only point is that I like to communicate in a way that makes musical sense. YMMV.

"The point" to writing it with a key signature of 4 sharps would be to indicate at a glance that the song is in the key of E Major. Some musicians, especially those who improvise, create certain expectations when they see certain key signatures.

My anecdote from personal experience is that I wrote an entire book on the blues. My publisher insisted (and I agreed after giving it some thought) that the "correct" way to notate the blues is using the key signature of the major key. So for example, blues in C would be notated with a key signature of no sharps or flats (C Major) and it is expected that there would be lots of Bb and Eb accidentals.

That said, I don't have any problem with a key signature of 3 sharps, as in the written example.

 

[Spin Doctor]

My anecdote from personal experience is that I wrote an entire book on the blues. My publisher insisted (and I agreed) that the "correct" way to notate the blues is using the key signature of the major key.

Ahh cool. Which book? I'm always interested in learning new info.

And your explanation did make a lot of sense to me as far as the accidentals go.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

so how about this one:



It says Key of E so I suppose B mixloadyian would sound good over it?

but others say it is in B but theres no A in the B scale?

If we follow "our" logic from this thread, then, it's B Mixolydian - the fifth mode of E major.

P.S. There is so much various info about modes in our TB forum.
Modes - am I getting this right?

 

[Mushroo]

so how about this one:



It says Key of E so I suppose B mixloadyian would sound good over it?

but others say it is in B but theres no A in the B scale?

Very similar progression to the Phish song, but "transposed" to a different key. Do you think Trey might be a Grateful Dead fan maybe?

I personally would say that "Fire on the Mountain" is in the key of B Major, and A natural in the key of B is something I come across a lot as I study rock and blues.

That said, it would also be "correct" to say that "Fire on the Mountain" fits well with the B Mixolydian mode, and it could be notated with a key signature of 4 sharps.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

That said, it would also be "correct" to say that "Fire on the Mountain" fits well with the B Mixolydian mode, and it could be notated with a key signature of 4 sharps.

Yes, two-chord progression without specific a/any recognizable dominant chord could be attributed to "Modal Harmony".

The "true-believers/orthodox theorists" would rather use the term "borrowed" chord or "modal interchange to describe the same chord progression based on half-cadence but instead of V chord it has a "borrowed" chord (Subtonic) flattened bVII.
The Mixolydian Mode explanation works faster and it's easier to understand.

P.S. Some can start using the Neo-Riemannian Theory" in order to explain chord progressions.
Link Removed

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Drew, don't read any more until you talk to your teacher. Your teacher is taking you down a road that will let you jam. He/she is using E Mixolydian as the mode you are to use. I think you are getting way ahead of yourself and need not worry what E Mix is right now just use what you teacher gave you. Trust your teacher to get you where you need to go.

Jamming is the thing he wants you doing right now. When you have a teacher there is a trust that must develop between the two of you. Ask your teacher these questions. Let him explain all this as you sit knee to knee.

BTW Good luck.