A quick 6-phaser shootout

[Yurtra]

This honestly doesn't make sense to me...yours "won" but this sounds like you feel defeated in some way. I am anxiously waiting for you to elaborate.

The obvious cognitive bias displayed by most people against digital effects must be especially disheartening to somebody who spends considerable time, money, and energy making such effects. Perhaps Roger (overly optimistically) assumed that bass players would be less prone to such bias?

In any case, I think you are right. This is definitely a "win" for Source Audio and I suspect that the lack of additional feedback might reflect mild internal dissonance amongst some of the original speculators. Only time and mountains of conflicting evidence can change such deeply entrenched attitudes.

I always speak highly about Source Audio to all of my friends and fellow musicians—but it is clear that marketing all-digital effects still poses some challenges.

 

[smeet]

Yep. That's exactly what the question in my last post was about - quite a few people weighed in and guessed that the worst-sounding one was probably the Orbital, solely because it is digital. When it was revealed that #the Orbital was in fact the one they liked the best, none of those folks came back and acknowledged that perhaps their preconceptions had been incorrect.

It's a shame... It's not about winning or losing, but rather about creating a level playing field where we judge effects (and instruments etc.) based on how they sound, and not the type of technology used.

 

[FretNoMore]

I have nothing against digital effects per se (and I did pick SA's sound as one of my favourites), but personally I have a hard time liking the enclosures. Silly, I know, but they just don't fit my taste in looks or fit well physically on my pedal board.

 

[smeet]

I can see that. The big enclosures are, well, big. But I think the weird wide-but-short form of the Orbital is kind of cool.

 

[johnk_10]

Yep. That's exactly what the question in my last post was about - quite a few people weighed in and guessed that the worst-sounding one was probably the Orbital, solely because it is digital. When it was revealed that #the Orbital was in fact the one they liked the best, none of those folks came back and acknowledged that perhaps their preconceptions had been incorrect.

It's a shame... It's not about winning or losing, but rather about creating a level playing field where we judge effects (and instruments etc.) based on how they sound, and not the type of technology used.

I have nothing against digital effects as long as they sound good (I recently purchased a Zoom MS60B and a MS70CDR and I like them alot).

I based my incorrect guess about the SA phaser on the sound of my SA MultiWave Bass Distortion Pro which, IMO is very midrangy and (basically sterile sounding) as far as dirt pedals go.

that said, after hearing the Orbital I ordered one and it got shipped today so I should have it by Wednesday/Thursday.

I too am not thrilled with the large SA enclosures, but if a pedal sounds great, i'm more than willing to get over it.

 

[bkbirge]

I'd like to hear someone put these samples through a 4ms phaser moire. I've got one but it's the super old version that someone made with a paper hand wired layout and it never has worked right, or at all most times. But from what I could tell from various demos, those seem the most "alive" modern built phasers.

 

[rsmith601]

This is my concern:

Compared to a basic analog phaser the Orbital offers:

- Selectable true/buffered bypass
- Multiple phaser algorithms
- Multiple high quality flanger algorithms, including the rare thru-zero
- Choruses
- Resonators
- Tremolo can be added to a wet or clean signal
- 2 presets out of the box
- 128 presets when using the Hub
- Full MIDI support
- tap tempo
- sin or square wave modulation or anywhere in between.
- envelope support
- Expression in/out
- Hot Hand in/out
- And lots of ways to go deep and tweak and save many other parameters
- Pricing compatible to analog pedals
- Pricing well below the Mobius
- It is much smaller than the Mobius and most other pedals with presets.
- The enclosure design came from the same firm that does industrial design for Apple. They told us our pedals needed to look cool, and that these look cool (we are engineers....so we believed them. It is what they do).

However, the cost and complexity of developing a pedal like this AND ensuring that every single algorithm tone will blow people away is perhaps 10X to 50X that of cloning or enhanced cloning of analog pedals. Digital is not cheaper or easier in any way when it comes to doing products like this.

We have been very lucky that bass players have been open to our approach. Many of you have more than one SA pedal. You even created a Source Audio Club on TB!

I think this thread was a sober reminder that we still have a long way to go in legitimizing our approach and making it viable. Thank you again for making sure we are in the discussion and for giving us a chance.

By the way the Multiwave is NOT supposed to sound warm and traditional at all. It is a futuristic fuzz and octave fuzz sound and not copying anything. I would play the OFD before passing judgment on our overdrives and traditional fuzz tones. Those who own both will support this claim.

Need to get back to work on the SB2 BEF and the Hub!

 

[Yurtra]

- The enclosure design came from the same firm that does industrial design for Apple. They told us our pedals needed to look cool, and that these look cool (we are engineers....so we believed them. It is what they do).

The SB2 enclosures are an excellent combination of form and functionality IMO. Top mount jacks save loads of space and it is very easy to cram a bunch of these guys together on a pedalboard. They also provide a unified, recognizable look for your product line.

That and when you hold them they are actually quite a bit smaller than they appear in promotional images. It's a great form factor considering the features crammed into each of the boxes and the price point of the product.

And—most importantly—the quality of the algorithms.

 

[jasonmitsch]

- Pricing well below the Mobius
- It is much smaller than the Mobius and most other pedals with presets.

I've been gassing for both the möbius and orbital, but just reading this was a revelation of sorts. I still want both but your break down has me feeling like I could make due with just the SA

 

[fishtx]

Thanks for this great thread Smeet...some great clips and incite have been shared by many.

I have been using a Nebula IV for the passed couple of years, and think I'll stick with it. As you have mentioned, they have excellent build quality, and although maybe not the most feature rich or versatile phaser out there...it has great tone and works for what I do...no reason for me to make any changes at this point ...Thanks again...

 

[Jared Lash]

Yep. That's exactly what the question in my last post was about - quite a few people weighed in and guessed that the worst-sounding one was probably the Orbital, solely because it is digital. When it was revealed that #the Orbital was in fact the one they liked the best, none of those folks came back and acknowledged that perhaps their preconceptions had been incorrect.

As someone who guessed that the Orbital was #6 I think it's important to clarify. To ME phasers 2-5 sounded the same. Since four of the phasers are Phase 90 variants I assumed those were (in some order) #2-5. That left just the Psilocybe and the Orbital. Since I knew flat out that the Psilocybe didn't sound like #6 I had to guess that it was #1 and that left just the SA which I've never heard or tried.

No digital bias, just (what I thought was) simple process of elimination. I'm actually more surprised that the Psilocybe sounds so similar to the other script circuits than I am that the Source Audio sounds great.

I bought one of the first runs of the Strymon Mobius so I'm certainly not a an analog snob. It's models sounded great though some were pretty obviously tuned more for guitar AND it just was too complex for live use - for my feeble brain at least.

Being tuned for bass I have to think the SA sounds even better than the models on the Strymon. I'm also curious how it sounds with dirt pedals (fuzz in particular) and when pegged with a hot signal (like running a octaver above unity gain) because those were two things that exposed a bit of the fact that the Strymon is digital.

I will definitely back up rsmith's point that I don't think people realize or give credit to how much work goes into producing a great digital pedal. I'm always surprised at how nuts people go over a tweaked clone of a 30 or 40 year old circuit while dismissing digital pedals just based on the fact that they are digital. It makes me think a lot of people don't realize how far digital modeling has come and how good it can sound when done right.

As a final thought, I think your (Smeet) BYOC is defective. I've never played one, but it falls so short of the normal PHase 90 sound (which I'm not even a huge fan of) that I think it has to have a build flaw or two.

 

[Adamixoye]

This is my concern:

Compared to a basic analog phaser the Orbital offers:

- Selectable true/buffered bypass
- Multiple phaser algorithms
- Multiple high quality flanger algorithms, including the rare thru-zero
- Choruses
- Resonators
- Tremolo can be added to a wet or clean signal
- 2 presets out of the box
- 128 presets when using the Hub
- Full MIDI support
- tap tempo
- sin or square wave modulation or anywhere in between.
- envelope support
- Expression in/out
- Hot Hand in/out
- And lots of ways to go deep and tweak and save many other parameters
- Pricing compatible to analog pedals
- Pricing well below the Mobius
- It is much smaller than the Mobius and most other pedals with presets.
- The enclosure design came from the same firm that does industrial design for Apple. They told us our pedals needed to look cool, and that these look cool (we are engineers....so we believed them. It is what they do).

However, the cost and complexity of developing a pedal like this AND ensuring that every single algorithm tone will blow people away is perhaps 10X to 50X that of cloning or enhanced cloning of analog pedals. Digital is not cheaper or easier in any way when it comes to doing products like this.

We have been very lucky that bass players have been open to our approach. Many of you have more than one SA pedal. You even created a Source Audio Club on TB!

I think this thread was a sober reminder that we still have a long way to go in legitimizing our approach and making it viable. Thank you again for making sure we are in the discussion and for giving us a chance.

By the way the Multiwave is NOT supposed to sound warm and traditional at all. It is a futuristic fuzz and octave fuzz sound and not copying anything. I would play the OFD before passing judgment on our overdrives and traditional fuzz tones. Those who own both will support this claim.

Need to get back to work on the SB2 BEF and the Hub!

I guess would ask what your ultimate goals are? I don't feel your approach needs to be legitimized. Yes, there is some bias against digital effects. Unfortunately, this is probably not going away any time soon---though maybe in my generation and the generation after mine (I'm 32) this bias will go away as people have grown up in a digital age. But it is not for lack of quality products or lack of effort on your part. Are you simply wishing for a level playing field? It would seem to me you have a successful business, are you wishing it would expand if you had that level playing field?

 

[smeet]

To ME phasers 2-5 sounded the same.

Yeah, I can see why you would think that from the recordings. In the room with my bass amp, they sounded (or is it felt?) quite different. The Psilocybe does have a distinctive flavor that I can hear as being different from the rest. But as you say, not radically different.

On the other hand, it's all phasing, so theoretically speaking, it shouldn't be much of a surprise that they all sound relatively close, should it?

It hadn't occurred to me until now that the two phasers that I am keeping are the two non-Phase90 designs. Interesting...

As a final thought, I think your (Smeet) BYOC is defective. I've never played one, but it falls so short of the normal PHase 90 sound (which I'm not even a huge fan of) that I think it has to have a build flaw or two.

I've never heard one before, but I'm absolutely convinced that you are correct. It's really unusable on bass, and I'm guessing it would sound nasty and lo-fi on guitar too. I'm in the process of trying to get my money back from the ebay seller, who unfortunately has not responded yet.

Adamixoye: I'm guessing that if your company develops a product that is much more difficult and expensive to develop than the competition's, losing business because of customer bias is a non-trivial issue.

 

[Adamixoye]

Adamixoye: I'm guessing that if your company develops a product that is much more difficult and expensive to develop than the competition's, losing business because of customer bias is a non-trivial issue.

I don't doubt that. I just guess I would have thought that he would have known that going in, and that he's been able to build a successful model in spite of that. His original post seemed to doubt that it was worth it at all, and I would think the answer to that is a pretty resounding no, wouldn't most of you?

 

[rsmith601]

I don't doubt that. I just guess I would have thought that he would have known that going in, and that he's been able to build a successful model in spite of that. His original post seemed to doubt that it was worth it at all, and I would think the answer to that is a pretty resounding no, wouldn't most of you?

The explosion of boutique analog pedals was not easy to foresee back in 2004. (The Line 6 DL4 was the hot pedal of the day.) The bias toward boutique analog pedals, including those that lack either originality or good tones, was also very hard to foresee. Long term our model is dependent on consumers choosing the products that sound the best and have the best features. I know we can count on bass players!!

 

[Adamixoye]

The explosion of boutique analog pedals was not easy to foresee back in 2004. (The Line 6 DL4 was the hot pedal of the day.) The bias toward boutique analog pedals, including those that lack either originality or good tones, was also very hard to foresee. Long term our model is dependent on consumers choosing the products that sound the best and have the best features. I know we can count on bass players!!

Well, I don't mean to sound dismissive of any of your concerns. It's your company on the line, not mine. Even though I don't any of our your gear currently, it definitely intrigues me and is on my long-term GAS list (especially that synth you're working on!). I believe in what you're doing and hope that the digital bias eventually goes away.

 

[johnk_10]

got my SA Orbital Modulator today and I gotta say. it sounds great. I still need to get more familiar with adjusting all the parameters/features but everything sounds great so far.

it's also ALOT smaller than I thought that it would be.

 

[gwangi]

This was a SERIOUS SHOOT-OUT, thank you everybody and thank you SMEET for thinking of it.

 

[gwangi]

Hey SMEET and JohnK 10 is the orbital modulator you both have the Source Audio Soundblox 2 Orbital Modulator?

 

[johnk_10]

Hey SMEET and JohnK 10 is the orbital modulator you both have the Source Audio Soundblox 2 Orbital Modulator?

that's the one that I have and I love it.