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A serious real life situation where i need advice
- Thread starter PastorofMuppets
- Start date
Something similar to me had happened awhile back - I was still in high school at the time.
I made a deal with a "friend" of mine that I would sell him a bass and an amp for $600, and he would pay me over time, $50 a month. He was a bass beginner and was actually in a band, but at some point decided that he did not want to play bass anymore, so he "abandoned" the bass and amp at his band's practice place, and then shortly thereafter apparently moved out of state. I tracked down his former band mates who essentially told me that they were keeping the bass and amp and I had to deal with my friend if I wanted them back. To make a long story short, I called the police, who called one of the band members, and about an hour later the guitarist showed up at my house and delivered the bass and amp to me. The cop apparently told the guitarist that he (the guitarist) could either deliver the bass and amp to me or that the cop could go get them - and if the cop had to go get them, it would not be pleasant.
The moral of the story? Since my "friend" defaulted on our agreement, the bass and amp were still my property that my "friend" stole, for lack of a better term. The fact that the band refused to relinquish them meant that they were knowingly in possession of stolen property, which is a crime.
You are in possession of at least $460.00 worth of goods the belongs to the music store - the cops may or may not care, it probably depends on where you live and if they have more important matters to attend to or not. It doesn't matter what the used cost is, it's the new cost that mattered. My bass and amp MSRP was over $1200 at the time, and the police told the guitar player that he was in possession of $1200 worth of stolen property, which I believe scared him into giving it back.
I don't know how much of this applies to your situation, but I would think a fair amount does. You know the mics were obtained by Easy fraudulently. You have them in your possession. Technically, they can have the cops come get them. As far as I can tell, you have no right to the property, and they have every right to demand it from you. I think it is a good idea that you decided to give them back, but I would certainly keep in mind that they have a right to the property. They may be required to prove it, but you have already admitted to having them, and I am sure they kept records. Who knows what length the store will go to in order to prove a point. Cops? Small claims court? Possible recovery costs? Is it worth all that trouble?
All the normal caveats apply - I am not a lawyer, do not play one on TV, I do know some lawyers but haven't asked any lawyers about your particular situation, haven't actually been to law school, the only bar I know is the one that my band plays at, I'm not a cop either, don't actually know any cops, don't play a cop on TV either, haven't seen your situation re-enacted on a Lifetime Made for TV movie, this does not consitute legal advice, use at your own risk, YMMV, IME, IMO, LOL, I could be a complete moron so take anything that I type with rather large grain of salt, put yourself in the other person's shoes, I can't spell worth a darn, and I certainly don't care to argue about this.
I made a deal with a "friend" of mine that I would sell him a bass and an amp for $600, and he would pay me over time, $50 a month. He was a bass beginner and was actually in a band, but at some point decided that he did not want to play bass anymore, so he "abandoned" the bass and amp at his band's practice place, and then shortly thereafter apparently moved out of state. I tracked down his former band mates who essentially told me that they were keeping the bass and amp and I had to deal with my friend if I wanted them back. To make a long story short, I called the police, who called one of the band members, and about an hour later the guitarist showed up at my house and delivered the bass and amp to me. The cop apparently told the guitarist that he (the guitarist) could either deliver the bass and amp to me or that the cop could go get them - and if the cop had to go get them, it would not be pleasant.
The moral of the story? Since my "friend" defaulted on our agreement, the bass and amp were still my property that my "friend" stole, for lack of a better term. The fact that the band refused to relinquish them meant that they were knowingly in possession of stolen property, which is a crime.
You are in possession of at least $460.00 worth of goods the belongs to the music store - the cops may or may not care, it probably depends on where you live and if they have more important matters to attend to or not. It doesn't matter what the used cost is, it's the new cost that mattered. My bass and amp MSRP was over $1200 at the time, and the police told the guitar player that he was in possession of $1200 worth of stolen property, which I believe scared him into giving it back.
I don't know how much of this applies to your situation, but I would think a fair amount does. You know the mics were obtained by Easy fraudulently. You have them in your possession. Technically, they can have the cops come get them. As far as I can tell, you have no right to the property, and they have every right to demand it from you. I think it is a good idea that you decided to give them back, but I would certainly keep in mind that they have a right to the property. They may be required to prove it, but you have already admitted to having them, and I am sure they kept records. Who knows what length the store will go to in order to prove a point. Cops? Small claims court? Possible recovery costs? Is it worth all that trouble?
All the normal caveats apply - I am not a lawyer, do not play one on TV, I do know some lawyers but haven't asked any lawyers about your particular situation, haven't actually been to law school, the only bar I know is the one that my band plays at, I'm not a cop either, don't actually know any cops, don't play a cop on TV either, haven't seen your situation re-enacted on a Lifetime Made for TV movie, this does not consitute legal advice, use at your own risk, YMMV, IME, IMO, LOL, I could be a complete moron so take anything that I type with rather large grain of salt, put yourself in the other person's shoes, I can't spell worth a darn, and I certainly don't care to argue about this.
Unfortunately, you do have something in your favor (I think, I couldn't read ALL the previous posts completely).
All issues of morality aside, they still don't know it is THEIR microphones you are trying to steal (sorry, no other term for it if you don't pay the grip for it). Without checking serials on the mics vs. the paperwork (I think someone alluded to that earlier), you could be thieving on someone else's mics. They need to prove you have THEIRS (again, not yours by any means and you have admitted such in writing to them - good going).
You do have one big incentive to cooperate in that if they do move forward with small claims court (in which you MUST respond) and you are found to be in possession of their stolen mics you may (likley) have to pay THEIR costs along with administrative court costs (county for you in Indiana??) in addition for the mics - at full retail. So they potentially have a 'no loose' proposition by throwing you under the bus - you may get to pay for them to sue you.
A couple of cheap mics could end up costing YOU (not Easy) several hundreds of dollars.
PS - If I were your attorney, I would say, 'Find another attorney'.
You could drop it in USPS Priority mail with receipt and tracking for about $7 and be done with it. Delivery to USPS has been considered constructive delivery.
Good Luck
Please don't listen to me or any others, go ahead and call their bluff, if you're feeling lucky.
All issues of morality aside, they still don't know it is THEIR microphones you are trying to steal (sorry, no other term for it if you don't pay the grip for it). Without checking serials on the mics vs. the paperwork (I think someone alluded to that earlier), you could be thieving on someone else's mics. They need to prove you have THEIRS (again, not yours by any means and you have admitted such in writing to them - good going).
You do have one big incentive to cooperate in that if they do move forward with small claims court (in which you MUST respond) and you are found to be in possession of their stolen mics you may (likley) have to pay THEIR costs along with administrative court costs (county for you in Indiana??) in addition for the mics - at full retail. So they potentially have a 'no loose' proposition by throwing you under the bus - you may get to pay for them to sue you.
A couple of cheap mics could end up costing YOU (not Easy) several hundreds of dollars.
PS - If I were your attorney, I would say, 'Find another attorney'.
You could drop it in USPS Priority mail with receipt and tracking for about $7 and be done with it. Delivery to USPS has been considered constructive delivery.
Good Luck
Please don't listen to me or any others, go ahead and call their bluff, if you're feeling lucky.
im not calling anything.
everything will be returned
all character attacks on me aside.
I realize this could have been handled so much better on both sides. I am going to do the right thing so in the end the damage to my rep will be minimal. I never wanted to steal anything. I was just never told any of this.
I get mad sometimes and go through the what ifs but in the end I usually do the right thing.
My rep with the store might be damaged but there are plenty of other stores and bands. I am in two working groups right now and have a solid schedule through the end of the year. I think I will be fine, and grateful to have this over with.
I haven't heard back since I said I wouldn't deliver, so I will probably fold on that also if he keeps pressing it.
Gasoline is expensive and I use a lot of it anyways and it would be nice if he would meet me half way since I am never wanted to be caught up in this. That's what peeved me so much. The owner would never give me even an inch. Like I am some kind of horrible bastard.
everything will be returned
all character attacks on me aside.
I realize this could have been handled so much better on both sides. I am going to do the right thing so in the end the damage to my rep will be minimal. I never wanted to steal anything. I was just never told any of this.
I get mad sometimes and go through the what ifs but in the end I usually do the right thing.
My rep with the store might be damaged but there are plenty of other stores and bands. I am in two working groups right now and have a solid schedule through the end of the year. I think I will be fine, and grateful to have this over with.
I haven't heard back since I said I wouldn't deliver, so I will probably fold on that also if he keeps pressing it.
Gasoline is expensive and I use a lot of it anyways and it would be nice if he would meet me half way since I am never wanted to be caught up in this. That's what peeved me so much. The owner would never give me even an inch. Like I am some kind of horrible bastard.
I would agree; being in possession of stolen goods is a crime (if you know about it). If they can prove the stuff is theirs, then they should be able to retrieve it.
Best line of a movie;
The Devil's Advocate at the very end Al Pacino (as the Devil) says, "Vanity, my favorite sin."
and a sinner I am
At least God still loves me
even if all the musicians in town hate me lol
even though they dont
a few people i know arent the greatest fans of the music store owner either
At least God still loves me
even if all the musicians in town hate me lol
even though they dont
a few people i know arent the greatest fans of the music store owner either
Also a good quote
"God help me to be at least half of the good person my dog believes me to be."
"God help me to be at least half of the good person my dog believes me to be."
The cops won't get involved in this. It's a civil issue, and that's what they'll tell you. As it is, you don't know what situation really is with those mics, other than you don't own them. The correct thing to do is get them to Easy. The issue is between him and the store. Your decision to let the store come get them is second best and, given the difficulty of getting them to Easy, is probably the most viable option. As someone else said, Easy may come back and say you had no authority or right to give his property to the store (they haven't proven what they've told you).
In the end, do you value your relationship with the store?
In the end, do you value your relationship with the store?
to munji
i dont want to intentionally damage it but it might be too late
i dont shop their often anymore but i do know a lot of people and they know alot of people
im returning the stuff there
big easy is never coming back he lives in AZ now and he never bothered to return my calls in the first place to get his stuff
actually the store has damaged its rep with me and I will no longer be a customer anyways
here is a post from another place to read
OK heres my take on the situation.................and please holster your guns until you finish reading!!
I am in the debt collection industry so I'll cover the "legal" part first.
The contract between the store and "Easy" is essentially a credit contract with "unsecured" goods. There is no mortgage or security document apparent at this point confirming that the title of the goods is with the store. Unless they can produce such a document clearly stating the title of the goods will remain with the store until the account has been paid in full, then you have every right to keep the mics............legally.
The contract wether written or implied is for finance (credit) between the store and Easy.......you are not party to any part of this contract. The onus is on the store to pursue Easy, not you.
Example: Say you brought a car "In good faith" that there is no finance owing on it and all enquiries lead a "reasonble person" to beleive the the vehicle was no longer subject of a secured contract, however 2 years later you are pulled over by police and they identify the vehcle as being previously stolen by the party that sold the car to you.........legally you do not have to return the vehicle, because you brought the vehicle "in good faith" and you made "reasonable attempts" to enquire about any security held on the vehicle. (One would think the previous owner's insurance has more than compensated them anyway.)
These mics have been passed to you "in good faith" that the previous person "easy" had title to the goods. You've only found out after the fact that money was owning for them. You are within your rights to tell them to continue to pursue Easy for the money.
Keep your hands off them triggers fellas!!!
Now Morally.........morally you need to put yourself in the store's shoes. They appear to be out of pocket for the goods, they know you have them and they can't locate Easy.
What would you expect to happen if you were the store? (all legal obligations aside)
If you want to keep the mics, negotiate a deal and pay for them. If you can't negotiate an acceptable deal to both parties, then probably best to return them and don't piss about with saying "only if they come to me". Take them back, be nice about it and maybe..........just maybe the store will look after you in future for doing the "Moral" right thing.
Legislation and morals don't always meet in the middle, but this is where human beings can display they are creatures built of moral fibre instead of being andriods.
i dont want to intentionally damage it but it might be too late
i dont shop their often anymore but i do know a lot of people and they know alot of people
im returning the stuff there
big easy is never coming back he lives in AZ now and he never bothered to return my calls in the first place to get his stuff
actually the store has damaged its rep with me and I will no longer be a customer anyways
here is a post from another place to read
OK heres my take on the situation.................and please holster your guns until you finish reading!!
I am in the debt collection industry so I'll cover the "legal" part first.
The contract between the store and "Easy" is essentially a credit contract with "unsecured" goods. There is no mortgage or security document apparent at this point confirming that the title of the goods is with the store. Unless they can produce such a document clearly stating the title of the goods will remain with the store until the account has been paid in full, then you have every right to keep the mics............legally.
The contract wether written or implied is for finance (credit) between the store and Easy.......you are not party to any part of this contract. The onus is on the store to pursue Easy, not you.
Example: Say you brought a car "In good faith" that there is no finance owing on it and all enquiries lead a "reasonble person" to beleive the the vehicle was no longer subject of a secured contract, however 2 years later you are pulled over by police and they identify the vehcle as being previously stolen by the party that sold the car to you.........legally you do not have to return the vehicle, because you brought the vehicle "in good faith" and you made "reasonable attempts" to enquire about any security held on the vehicle. (One would think the previous owner's insurance has more than compensated them anyway.)
These mics have been passed to you "in good faith" that the previous person "easy" had title to the goods. You've only found out after the fact that money was owning for them. You are within your rights to tell them to continue to pursue Easy for the money.
Keep your hands off them triggers fellas!!!
Now Morally.........morally you need to put yourself in the store's shoes. They appear to be out of pocket for the goods, they know you have them and they can't locate Easy.
What would you expect to happen if you were the store? (all legal obligations aside)
If you want to keep the mics, negotiate a deal and pay for them. If you can't negotiate an acceptable deal to both parties, then probably best to return them and don't piss about with saying "only if they come to me". Take them back, be nice about it and maybe..........just maybe the store will look after you in future for doing the "Moral" right thing.
Legislation and morals don't always meet in the middle, but this is where human beings can display they are creatures built of moral fibre instead of being andriods.
It seems this would be like buying the mikes with a credit card.
Credit card companies don't go around collecting the stuff you bought with the card if you default because it's a finance issue and not a secured item.
You might want to do a little more research on this issue.
Title cannot be passed on stolen property based on the following Federal Case: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
"A thief stole two young bulls from the plaintiff, a farmer, and sold them to the bona fide defendant for DM 1,701. The defendant processed the animals in his meat product factory. Both of the previous court instances allowed the plaintiff's action that the defendant should pay him compensation for value to the amount of DM 1,701. The defendant's appeal, while admitted, was without success."
Okay, I know the thread has gone on from here quite a bit, here is the thing. Although those microphones don't belong to you, they don't belong to your "friend" either.
I don't know which mics or how much they cost, but I'm assuming since the store is contacting you it's quite a penny. When he stopped making payment on those microphones he defaulted his end of the deal and so those microphones don't belong to him, they belong to the store.
That being said, since they're in your possession, if you don't comply with the store can be charged with receiving stolen property (which is a felony).
Here is the moral side of the story too, the store didn't do anything wrong, hell they were pretty generous. Allowing somebody who didn't have money for the items upfront to receive them pending a payment plan. They got ****ed over in this deal. Keeping the mics will basically mean stealing money from the store that the store needs to stay in business.
I would guess the store should make a deal with you compensating you for your troubles, maybe give you a deal to buy the mics out right.
I agree to an extent. On the other hand I think the store takes responsibility for the risk. If you don't want this kind of thing happening to you in business, don't offer credit. If they do have a payment plan on the mics then the issue is really with debt collection.
I think the OP's responsibility here is to refer the store or the store's debt collecting agent to the original buyer in terms of phone numbers and email addresses. I think you have to look at what the statute of limitations is on this kind of thing too. The OP did say he made an offer on the price of the mics and was flat out refused, which to me is kind of silly on the part of the store since the mics are apparently unsaleable as new stock now and they would have lost the mics outright if not for the fact they were left at his house.
Sure if you want to save yourself grief give them back and wash your hands of it. On the other hand it seems to me, and also by what you have been advised elsewhere, these guys don't have a legal leg to stand on by pursuing you over it.
Dude they should have a UPS or shippers account. Have them create a paid label, email it you, you print it out, and you throw them in a box and stick the label on it. Put the box in the bin and never look at this issue again.
No gas wasted.
I agree, their contract was with Easy, they can pursue action against him, not you.
Don't worry about it, but it sounds like they are trying to scare you into bringing them back.
You are not in possession of stolen goods, the items weren't stolen, Easy is in default of his loan. A cop isn't a repo dude, he isn't going to come knocking to repossess anything.
They are blowing hot air.
No gas wasted.
I agree, their contract was with Easy, they can pursue action against him, not you.
Don't worry about it, but it sounds like they are trying to scare you into bringing them back.
You are not in possession of stolen goods, the items weren't stolen, Easy is in default of his loan. A cop isn't a repo dude, he isn't going to come knocking to repossess anything.
They are blowing hot air.
I would think that if the store could prove that they had sold the mic's to this "easy"guy, and that he had not paid for them, well then you could get into some hassle by having them in your possession.
I would ask the store to provide you that same proof, like model & serial #'s and copies of the bill of sale to "easy". If they can provide these to you - and they should be willing to in order to prove their claim. The smart thing to do would be to give them back the mic's.
If they cannot, then you have to decide which is more valuable - the mic's or your reputation?
My thoughts only, and I'm no lawyer.
I would ask the store to provide you that same proof, like model & serial #'s and copies of the bill of sale to "easy". If they can provide these to you - and they should be willing to in order to prove their claim. The smart thing to do would be to give them back the mic's.
If they cannot, then you have to decide which is more valuable - the mic's or your reputation?
My thoughts only, and I'm no lawyer.
There is one thing that I would definitely do, if I decided to give the store back the mics. Get everything in writing. Get documentation of the mics, serial numbers and proof of the original transaction. Also get them to give you a receipt when they take them back, with the date and the serial numbers of the mics. That way you know that they are taking the right mics back and also should your "friend" ever get involved in the situation you can't be accused of being in collusion with the shop over any money he loses out on or of giving the mics to anyone other than the store. If the store for any reason refused to do so I would probably hang on to the mics until it was sorted out legally.
Jeez guys, what country do you live in ???
The deal was made with Easy, they probably took action againts him for the default of payments.
YOU HAVE NOTHING to do with this!!
As far as your concerned, the mics belong to Easy and if he didnt paid for them, its his/their problem.
Do not give the mics back to anyone but Easy.
DO NOT GIVE THE MICS BACK UNLESS THEY HAVE A COURT ORDER
end of the story
The deal was made with Easy, they probably took action againts him for the default of payments.
YOU HAVE NOTHING to do with this!!
As far as your concerned, the mics belong to Easy and if he didnt paid for them, its his/their problem.
Do not give the mics back to anyone but Easy.
DO NOT GIVE THE MICS BACK UNLESS THEY HAVE A COURT ORDER
end of the story
