WOW, 30 18" subs and 100,000 watts
Oups , I meant 12 .....
The kit I had was 6 X MSL4 and 6 X 650 subs , not sure about total power , but it kicks a lot
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A soundman's rant to younger players.
- Thread starter fokof
- Start date
Oups , I meant 12 .....
The kit I had was 6 X MSL4 and 6 X 650 subs , not sure about total power , but it kicks a lot
Is it that the young guys aren't over themselves..
I've noticed that since the rise of hifi "cut through the mix" gear (and players) that fewer and fewer of my students understand spectrum mix and overall sound.
Many guys think the sound at home is the same as live sound.. few listen to an overall band mix.
I've noticed that since the rise of hifi "cut through the mix" gear (and players) that fewer and fewer of my students understand spectrum mix and overall sound.
Many guys think the sound at home is the same as live sound.. few listen to an overall band mix.
So how is it the 45 of the 50 bass players that didn't sound good based on your analysis, were'nt aware of "their" tone?
I suggest that you insist in pre-eq DI.
I do agree that all of us should run sound a few times to understand "my tone" is not the same as when in mid house.
Then please evaluate me - I (new to the gigging thing) think I should be somewhat soundman-friendly?
Precision with rounds, into an amp with a rediculously hot XLR-out, post EQ.
I bring a -25 db attenuator for the DI in case the venue doesn't have anything else. This way the signal to the desk is a little lower but I don't know about the impedances. I leave mids flat, bass backed off to the point the notes are only a little woolly trough the cabs and back off treble a bit. Just for the sake of turning down treble.
I can set the EQ flat as a whole, but I think this gives me my sound on stage and should not be too drastically for someone with a mixing desk, right? I mean, if they have to cut bass I suppose they won't need to go to -18, maybe -6 at max?
Precision with rounds, into an amp with a rediculously hot XLR-out, post EQ.
I bring a -25 db attenuator for the DI in case the venue doesn't have anything else. This way the signal to the desk is a little lower but I don't know about the impedances. I leave mids flat, bass backed off to the point the notes are only a little woolly trough the cabs and back off treble a bit. Just for the sake of turning down treble.
I can set the EQ flat as a whole, but I think this gives me my sound on stage and should not be too drastically for someone with a mixing desk, right? I mean, if they have to cut bass I suppose they won't need to go to -18, maybe -6 at max?
I never insist , I always strongly suggest a pre DI , then they accept or not.
As a player , I'm the pre DI type but I understand how and why others are not and I respect that. We can't generalise on that too.
Miking an amp limits the low end data sent but has other issues.
I had some post EQ upright players that sounded very good too.
do i think some bass players have no clue how to mix themselves for their band? absolutely. but it's a fine line between mixing a band and trying to produce them. i've been accused in the past of using too much midbass and not enough treble, but i like a strong midbass and i don't like a whole lot of treble. anything past 5k and i check out. i also don't like it to be too loud in the mix. it just happens to work very well for the type of music i play. and a strong bass drum on the bottom of our mix is death to a lot of the 50's and early 60's oldies i play, too. so if a soundman uses the modern standard to mix us, it's going to sound like crap and be inappropriate for the music i'm doing. and yet, we sometimes get arguments from soundmen who like to mix us like that.
so as much a responsibility as the bassist has to eq an appropriate sound for their band, a soundman ALSO needs to be responsible and realize that maybe the band is looking for a certain sound, too. just remember that a lot of soundmen thought entwistle's live tone was too bright and not bottomy enough, too.
so as much a responsibility as the bassist has to eq an appropriate sound for their band, a soundman ALSO needs to be responsible and realize that maybe the band is looking for a certain sound, too. just remember that a lot of soundmen thought entwistle's live tone was too bright and not bottomy enough, too.
So, are you taking a dry pre-eq DI, post-eq DI, or miking the cab? The tonal difference between those options will be quite drastic.
The bass player should know which option will provide you with the sound they want for their project. If they're say, over-driving their pre-gain and your taking a pre-eq DI, then you've pretty much changed the entire character of their sound.. it's equivalent to having them play with a pick rather then fingers.
Seems like much of this can be blamed on the ever-discussed issue of whether or not bass cabs should act as tone controls. All these bass cabs that are mid-bumped, or designed with some "character" goal other than neutral, will sound completely different then what is taken as DI to the PA.
So if bass players are eq'ing their tone according to what's coming out of their far-from-neutral cabs (and of course they are), and if you're taking a DI rather then miking the cab itself, then no wonder you're having to "undo" their rig's eq when mixing for neutral headphones or room-corrected full-range PA's speakers.
My band records practice so we always have rough mixes for review. The bass is recorded via post-eq DI, and the tone is completely different then what's happening in-room via a 1x15 cab. So when I adjust amp/pedal/instrument eq for how I want the bass to sit in the mix, I'm constantly reminding myself of what it REALLY sounds like through that post-eq DI when listening back on good headphones (Sennheiser HD600's). I suspect that if I were to use a cab that had a more neutral freq response, I wouldn't have such a disparity in tone between in-room and recorded.
Of course the room is changing the tone as well, and usually a small practice room will corner-load the cab and boost low frequencies, causing the player with even a somewhat flat cab to roll back low bass freq's. But a good PA will go flatter lower than any practical bass cab, so that particular eq tweak probably works out in the wash.
The bass player should know which option will provide you with the sound they want for their project. If they're say, over-driving their pre-gain and your taking a pre-eq DI, then you've pretty much changed the entire character of their sound.. it's equivalent to having them play with a pick rather then fingers.
Seems like much of this can be blamed on the ever-discussed issue of whether or not bass cabs should act as tone controls. All these bass cabs that are mid-bumped, or designed with some "character" goal other than neutral, will sound completely different then what is taken as DI to the PA.
So if bass players are eq'ing their tone according to what's coming out of their far-from-neutral cabs (and of course they are), and if you're taking a DI rather then miking the cab itself, then no wonder you're having to "undo" their rig's eq when mixing for neutral headphones or room-corrected full-range PA's speakers.
My band records practice so we always have rough mixes for review. The bass is recorded via post-eq DI, and the tone is completely different then what's happening in-room via a 1x15 cab. So when I adjust amp/pedal/instrument eq for how I want the bass to sit in the mix, I'm constantly reminding myself of what it REALLY sounds like through that post-eq DI when listening back on good headphones (Sennheiser HD600's). I suspect that if I were to use a cab that had a more neutral freq response, I wouldn't have such a disparity in tone between in-room and recorded.
Of course the room is changing the tone as well, and usually a small practice room will corner-load the cab and boost low frequencies, causing the player with even a somewhat flat cab to roll back low bass freq's. But a good PA will go flatter lower than any practical bass cab, so that particular eq tweak probably works out in the wash.
You're right.
If a band don't trust the local soundman to do a good job ,respect the style of music , they should hire their own soundman.
The cases I report here is when I'm mixing ,so the band had a certain level of confidence in me , or else they would hire theirs. That confidence include that they think I can get the appropriate style and mix accordingly.
In the cases where the bands brought their soundman , well , I'm paid to check out the beautiful girls on the streets !
( It's an outside gig)and I'm not commenting on their jobs.
In your case Jimmy , you should DEFINITLY always hire your own soundman if you often face those situations.
You can say it to the guy on the fly/on the spot , and if that is not enough , it is the band's responsabilty to transmit this info to the FOH guy in advance , send a CD , pay him to go to rehersal, etc.....
Again , if you use the local soundman , it's because you didn't hire one and leave him full responsability.
I understand the frustrations of running sound, and in the situation described I'd be the OP is spot on. Or at least nearly so.
My concern is that of a player who has spent a lot of time working on tone to get a sound that sits well in the band's mix. Should the sound man take a pre-eq DI and then shape the bass tone into some generic "every bass" sound that is nothing like what the bassist prefers? At what point do the decisions for the band's overall sound and individual tone transfer from the musician to the sound man? Stepping a bit further back, should the sound man do extreme EQ on the drum kit or add compression/EQ/effects to the guitar? After all, both can initially have a fairly ugly sound that does not sit well in the band's overall mix.
It comes down to the sound man's role. Is the objective to make the band audible in the larger space, maintaining the tonal characteristics the musician's have chosen for them selves within the limits of the room acoustics? Or is it to change the band's sound to conform to the soundman's idea of what each instrument should sound like, perhaps making every drummer sound the same, every bassist sound the same, every guitarist sound the same, etc.
This is not an attack on the OP. This is an observation I've made after dealing with a few sound people (far less than many of you) over the years. If the sound person asks me for to use a DI between the bass and my amp I will let them know that I would like a reasonably mid-range heavy sound, a classic rock circa early '70's sound, much like a Fender Bassman or an Ampeg sound (as long as it isn't muddy or too grindy). later I hear feedback from friends or I watch the video. Guitars sound pretty close to the stage sound, vocals are good, drums have a lot of deep kick boost, and in a lot of cases the bass (my bass) is a low end subharmonic mudd lost completely in the mix. The band's overall sound is nothing like what we've spent a ton of time developing.
So not to hijack the tread, but am I the only one who is annoyed by someone making decisions about the sound of the band that are contrary to what the band (or musician's) want?
My concern is that of a player who has spent a lot of time working on tone to get a sound that sits well in the band's mix. Should the sound man take a pre-eq DI and then shape the bass tone into some generic "every bass" sound that is nothing like what the bassist prefers? At what point do the decisions for the band's overall sound and individual tone transfer from the musician to the sound man? Stepping a bit further back, should the sound man do extreme EQ on the drum kit or add compression/EQ/effects to the guitar? After all, both can initially have a fairly ugly sound that does not sit well in the band's overall mix.
It comes down to the sound man's role. Is the objective to make the band audible in the larger space, maintaining the tonal characteristics the musician's have chosen for them selves within the limits of the room acoustics? Or is it to change the band's sound to conform to the soundman's idea of what each instrument should sound like, perhaps making every drummer sound the same, every bassist sound the same, every guitarist sound the same, etc.
This is not an attack on the OP. This is an observation I've made after dealing with a few sound people (far less than many of you) over the years. If the sound person asks me for to use a DI between the bass and my amp I will let them know that I would like a reasonably mid-range heavy sound, a classic rock circa early '70's sound, much like a Fender Bassman or an Ampeg sound (as long as it isn't muddy or too grindy). later I hear feedback from friends or I watch the video. Guitars sound pretty close to the stage sound, vocals are good, drums have a lot of deep kick boost, and in a lot of cases the bass (my bass) is a low end subharmonic mudd lost completely in the mix. The band's overall sound is nothing like what we've spent a ton of time developing.
So not to hijack the tread, but am I the only one who is annoyed by someone making decisions about the sound of the band that are contrary to what the band (or musician's) want?
Read answer #29
Why does my band leader hire me as a bass player ?
Because of trust.
Can't think of famous quote with "trust'"
- Jun 25, 2007
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- Artist:TC Electronic RH450 bass system (original test-pilot)
Read answer #29
Why does my band leader hire me as a bass player ?
Because of trust.
Can't think of famous quote with "trust'"
The key is to get to know people and trust them to be who they are. Instead, we trust people to be who we want them to be- and when they're not, we cry.
I know I should post this in the "Humour" section but here it goes;
When I mix and someone comes to me and say I don't hear the keyboards , if they are older , I ask them if they his/her perents......
Anyways , back to topic ;
There is a lot of variables on a show and can't comment on your particular situation , too many variables;
Acoustics , backline, quality of PA/equipement , etc....
I don't know you so don't take it too harsh but is it possible that maybe that's what you sound like ?
My point is ; even though you guys sound terrific in your practice room or in your bedroom that doesn't mean that you will sound like this on a multi K-watts PA.
I figure I've pretty much solved this problem. I go with a rack setup, into a fEarful. Neutrally voiced cab, so I have a much better idea of that I'll sound like through my DI. My DI is integrated into my tube preamp, which I leave almost completely flat. The DI is post, but I don't EQ much, I'm just getting nice and juicy tube tone and the tiniest bit of overdrive. IME this works out really well for everyone involved.
The problem with this thinking, unless you have your own sound guy that you hire out all the time, the soundguy at a club/gig isnt going to know the way you sound at home, and therefore, has no idea how to make you sound like that. Their interest is to ensure that you sound good through their system. If you have a specific tone you need, youre best off talking to the soundguy about it and helping him to achieve it. However, what you want may not fit into the mix of the entire band.
Well, that was my initial reaction. I absolutely hate the tone of about half the (very good) bass players I hear, so it would annoy me if I was getting that tone out front.
If my bass needs a lot of EQ, this means somebody has the wrong idea of how our band is supposed to sound, but then I'd assume that person would ask me about it or something.And then I realized, OP has a point. When I was recording my bass from DI in sessions this year, it needed a lot of EQ to sound even remotely decent. If this is the mix I'm sending to the board, this means I've sounded awful out front for the last year! Over the last month, I revamped my pedalboard completely, and now the only processing on recorded tracks is modeled tube compression. I now have to EQ my stage amp considerably differently, though.
So what I've learned is that, unless you specifically work to get a good sound out of your DI, you won't get a good sound out of your DI.
ThanxThe key is to get to know people and trust them to be who they are. Instead, we trust people to be who we want them to be- and when they're not, we cry.
I now have to EQ my stage amp considerably differently, though.
So what I've learned is that, unless you specifically work to get a good sound out of your DI, you won't get a good sound out of your DI.
^^^^What he says ^^^^^^
Took me 30 years to get a good tone out of my bass (hands)
And I'm very proud of it , now what it sounds in the FOH is not my job when I'm a bass player. If the FOH guy EQ me like hell I won't mind as long as the overall sounds nice.
When I finish a show I never ask how did I sound , I always ask how did IT sound
