Again, if that 1x10 isn't direct mic'd and instead the PA is getting a DI signal.. well, then you're not even reproducing the same sound as what was heard in the bedroom.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
A soundman's rant to younger players.
- Thread starter fokof
- Start date
Again, if that 1x10 isn't direct mic'd and instead the PA is getting a DI signal.. well, then you're not even reproducing the same sound as what was heard in the bedroom.
Please read the thread again.
Please tell me in wich reply I said something that would let anybody thinks that I wasn't interested in what the band is supposed to sound like.
Thank you
everything you said is very true. I am inexperienced. I am also at a gig, paid to do my job. That would be to play to the best of my ability.. He'd be at the gig, paid to do his job. That is to make the sound as good as he can, to the best of his ability. all things considered, it shouldn't be a friend or an enemy situation. sadly it is.
dd you read what i said? If the band has spent any amount of time being a band, that means they sonud how they want to sound. You said you had to "drasticly EQ" all bu about 5 of hte bands. that means that their sound wasn't what your sound was. As i just said, what makes your sound better than their sound? they're playing.
but none of this matters, because i've played next-to-no gigs and you're the gig expert.
Every room will sound different. Its a matter of the size & shape of a room. Even more so, where in the room you set up, where your speakers are facing, and a lot more than that.
That bolded part, that tells me a lot. It tells me that youve only experienced playing out 4 times, and that you probably don't know that every PA you use, and every room you play in, can and will have an affect on your sound. Great, your band has spent lots of time EQing yourselves to your garage, but when you get into a venue do you want to sound like youre playing in your garage? The venue isnt the same size or shape, and has way different acoustics than a garage. You may have an excellent sound in your garage, but that doesnt mean it will sound that way once youre on a stage.
I agree though, that a soundguy should work with you to keep your sound in tact, but the reality is, that some people's tone won't sound good FOH, and further EQing will need to be done.
It becomes a 'friend/enemy' situation when you have people who can't talk to each other about needs and wants, or respect someone else's knowledge and experience. I've had great soundguys, I've had incredibly horrible ones. And I've played the other side of the fence too, as the sound guy dealing with experienced and inexperienced bass players.
Nothing wrong with being new and inexperienced, just communicate. Then you have a chance of letting the guy know what kind of sound you're going for. And if the sound guy is experienced and CAN give you what you ask for (realistically), he will do his best. If he's inexperienced, or just a douche, he may not, or not even try.
And if you open that garage door -- AND DO NOTHING ELSE -- then put enough power behind it to push it to 1000's of people three blocks over, the entire sound will [likely] be so dramatically different as to be unrecognizable from the original product.
edit: was tyoing when Matticus' post came in. Consider this a +1 for him, as well.
dcr
And again.
Have you considered that your bass cab is the weak link in this narrative? You're eq'ing your amp for the coloration of that cab, and then bypassing those eq settings because they don't work with the PA cabs.
So why not just use a cab that's designed to sound more like a PA cab? That way your amp's eq won't be so far off the mark that you have to bypass it.
A cab should function as a monitor of how you sound FOH. If it doesn't, then it's functioning as a tone control, in which case you should either mic it or leave it at home and rely on the stage monitor.
Nod to Phalex for pointing this out too.
Some sound guys don't do a good job, some don't.
The big takeaway is that listening to the band as a whole is a worthwhile exercise.
Did you have to change the EQ settings around on your amps, imstruments, PA, etc. or did everything stay exactly the same?
Don't get me wrong...I spent years in the garage too (well, ours was actually an old building we rented downtown) and in that band NEVER played out. So I'll congratulate you for moving forward, and welcome you to the world of live music.
I've worked as a soundman with a helluva lot less quantity and lower quality gear than the OP and I know what both of you are talking about. Most were as a hired soundman / band soundguy, but have done a bunch in the "guerilla" festival types too. And it is different. But one thing is the same: If you know what you/your band want, it's easier to work the FOH than if it's grab and go during the first song.
Communication is key, IMO. Just like in any other endeavor.
dcr
You know, I have thought about that as well. Frankly, I've tried several well known cabinets and have yet to achieve what you're talking about. Short of getting some type of full range PA cabinets up on stage with me, I haven't come across something I have liked more than my current cab. I really do use it only as a monitor as I like a quieter stage.
My cab is for MY particular taste as I play along with the rest of the band. As sound guy, I make sure FOH is solid for our paying audience.
Im curious about my sound as I've bee complimented on my tone from at least a few sound guys. I have a 9 band para on my amp that has a frown/smirk, lol. Bumb in the lower mids and ever so slight hump in the highs. The onboard on my bass also has a mid bump and a lil bit of bass boost highs, stays at 0. Never had a complaint, just wondering if I have a good sound, I play a Lakland 55-01.
Did you have to change the EQ settings around on your amps, imstruments, PA, etc. or did everything stay exactly the same?
Don't get me wrong...I spent years in the garage too (well, ours was actually an old building we rented downtown) and in that band NEVER played out. So I'll congratulate you for moving forward, and welcome you to the world of live music.
I've worked as a soundman with a helluva lot less quantity and lower quality gear than the OP and I know what both of you are talking about. Most were as a hired soundman / band soundguy, but have done a bunch in the "guerilla" festival types too. And it is different. But one thing is the same: If you know what you/your band want, it's easier to work the FOH than if it's grab and go during the first song.
Communication is key, IMO. Just like in any other endeavor.
dcr
actually, no, we didn't change anything other than volume. Turned the amps up 1 or two points, and the drummer was already loud enough, and rocked out.
maybe with more experience i'd understand better what other people go through to get a "correct" sound
I too am a bassist/FOH engineer (with about half the OP's experience), and what I will add to the OP's advice to young players is this: Play hard during the sound check (how you usually play with the whole band playing), or the engineer will have to cut your gain when the band comes in, and this can throw the balance on monitor mixes (particularly if the band has in-ear's with personal mixers) and even EQ settings completely off. Also, as others have suggested, use equalization sparingly, and make sure it sounds good in a mix (since, IMO, what sounds good solo does not necessarily sound good in a mix).
What I have come to practice in terms of EQ as a player is this: equalizing my bass so that it sounds like it needs a little more low end and a little too much high end (for my tastes) when it is solo actually makes it sound quite pleasant and sit well in a modern rhythm section. YMMV
What I have come to practice in terms of EQ as a player is this: equalizing my bass so that it sounds like it needs a little more low end and a little too much high end (for my tastes) when it is solo actually makes it sound quite pleasant and sit well in a modern rhythm section. YMMV
I disagree with the premise that the player should eq for the soundman.
The player should Eq for his style and the genre of the music. Staying true to the music and being comfortable is key to making art and sounding good (sounding good is a personal determination).
My criticism of many players is 1) they are too loud 2) do not listen carefully to the ensemble. Try and create a natural beautiful mix on stage. If it sounds good there, then we are making some music.
Not singling out bass players, this is true of many musicians. That can cause big problems for the sound man.
For the OP
Take a DI post effects and pre EQ and let the player do his thing. He is the artist.
The player should Eq for his style and the genre of the music. Staying true to the music and being comfortable is key to making art and sounding good (sounding good is a personal determination).
My criticism of many players is 1) they are too loud 2) do not listen carefully to the ensemble. Try and create a natural beautiful mix on stage. If it sounds good there, then we are making some music.
Not singling out bass players, this is true of many musicians. That can cause big problems for the sound man.
For the OP
Take a DI post effects and pre EQ and let the player do his thing. He is the artist.
Can't argue against that.
What I'm pushing back on is that I adjust my right hand technique when playing with a particular tone.. I assumed most players do.. but if it sounds completely different to the audience then it kinda defeats that effort...?
Let's completely flip it around: Would a rock guitarist play as well if all he could hear on stage was his clean tone?
A better example: Imagine Stanley Clarke, holding a bent note, manipulating the sound, working with the sustain, over-saturation and feedback of his overdriven Fender Twin amp. But meanwhile, that same plucked note has long since faded in the clean tone of the FOH sound because the soundman decided to pre-eq DI his whole rig..
On subject, OP is right that it starts with making your tone sound good in a MIX rather than solo. I latched on to your post because few of us have the same opportunity to really hear what's happening in the mix of their own live sound. Must be nice.
Very interesting thread. First, let me say I sympathize with both sides, since I've been a gigging musician (on both bass and guitar) for over 30 years, and I'm also a studio rat, having made my living as an engineer for many years as well.
The sound in a live venue or on a recording is a collaboration between the musicians and the sound man, and it takes both sides doing their job well, and working together, for the final product to be the best it can be.
As a player, it's all about context. Whether in the studio or on stage, the sound that works best in the context of the band often sounds pretty crappy on its own, and I highly advise folks to record their gigs, and hear what they really sound like with the band. In most of the places I play these days, most of my sound comes from my rig on the stage. I've done this long enough to know that I have to change my EQ a bit for every place we play. The vast majority of clubs are pretty poor acoustic environments.
As an engineer, you have two bosses. Your job is to help the musicians realize their vision, but you also have to satisfy the folks paying the bills (the club owner, record label, etc. is paying for a certain sound).
If it's an experienced, professional band, you can probably just take your cues from them. A friend of mine, who is a great engineer with many platinum record credits to his name, told me about one of the first sessions he ever did. He was still a teenager, and found himself behind the console in the studio with Jaco on the other side of the glass. My friend is getting things together and Jaco is ready to record, so he asks what the holdup was. My friend told him "Just a minute - I'm getting my sound." Jaco's reply was "I'm F'in' Jaco! It's MY f'in' sound - you just have to hit record!"
If you're working with less experienced folks, or if you know the room's deficiencies really well and the band doesn't, you may have more work to do to tailor their sound. And try telling the bass player "I know you can't hear it on stage, but there's this terrible standing wave at 80 Hz in this place. If you can trim some of your low end, you'll get a lot more definition, and I promise you the bass will still be powerful out front." We're often reasonable people!
And sound men, for goodness sakes, walk around the club and listen from more than one vantage point! I love the control of the studio, so I never did a ton of live mixing, but every now and then, a band that I had recorded would ask me to mix a showcase gig for them. I mixed a show at a club that was pretty famous for big reggae acts, and the sound system always had this huge, pillowy, muddy bass, that worked for that stuff, but was horrible for other music (I saw the Chili Peppers there once, and you heard from Flea was rumble). I vowed I would get a good mix that night, and it was easy to get the low end sounding great, so I wondered what the problem was for these other sound guys. Then I stepped off the mixing platform to walk around the room, and as soon as I did, I got hit with the giant muddy rumble. I spent the next 10 minutes hopping on and off the riser, and was able to dial it in, but for all the shows I saw at that club, had nobody ever stepped off the riser?!
The sound man also has to understand the system. I'm not saying that's the issue with the OP, but a lot of today's systems have way too much power and way too many subs. That's fine for that annoying "slam you in the chest" kick drum that's popular in a lot of music, but it's just wrong for a lot of other music. I saw a triple bill at BB King's in NYC a while back. The first act was Bob Brotzman - killer solo acoustic slide player, who does some percussion stuff on the guitar as well. Every time he hit the guitar, the audience was just crushed with the thump. Next act - the Campbell Brothers - sacred steel based gospel funk/blues. Again, we're just getting killed with low end. I walk around the place to make sure it's not just where I'm sitting, and no, it's everywhere. The 3rd act is Sonny Landreth, and I had just helped record his live record. I didn't want to have a confrontation with the sound guy, but I really wasn't going to enjoy the show with the low end the way it was, so bracing for a battle, I went up to talk to him. As it turned out, I didn't have to give the guy any of my background, or fight about why he should listen to me - the guy was very open. Way better mix for that set.
As an engineer, I've worked with folks who had their acts totally together, and I've worked with folks who needed a lot of coaching. Approached correctly, most folks are pretty open to that. As a player, I've had awesome sound men (the guy at the big outdoor gig going up to every single box and putting a little piece of tape on it. I ask what he's doing and he tells me he's checking the phase on each one and doesn't want to miss any!) and some lousy ones (the guy who "fell asleep" at the board comes to mind). It definitely works best when the band and the sound guy are both good and on the same page.
The sound in a live venue or on a recording is a collaboration between the musicians and the sound man, and it takes both sides doing their job well, and working together, for the final product to be the best it can be.
As a player, it's all about context. Whether in the studio or on stage, the sound that works best in the context of the band often sounds pretty crappy on its own, and I highly advise folks to record their gigs, and hear what they really sound like with the band. In most of the places I play these days, most of my sound comes from my rig on the stage. I've done this long enough to know that I have to change my EQ a bit for every place we play. The vast majority of clubs are pretty poor acoustic environments.
As an engineer, you have two bosses. Your job is to help the musicians realize their vision, but you also have to satisfy the folks paying the bills (the club owner, record label, etc. is paying for a certain sound).
If it's an experienced, professional band, you can probably just take your cues from them. A friend of mine, who is a great engineer with many platinum record credits to his name, told me about one of the first sessions he ever did. He was still a teenager, and found himself behind the console in the studio with Jaco on the other side of the glass. My friend is getting things together and Jaco is ready to record, so he asks what the holdup was. My friend told him "Just a minute - I'm getting my sound." Jaco's reply was "I'm F'in' Jaco! It's MY f'in' sound - you just have to hit record!"
If you're working with less experienced folks, or if you know the room's deficiencies really well and the band doesn't, you may have more work to do to tailor their sound. And try telling the bass player "I know you can't hear it on stage, but there's this terrible standing wave at 80 Hz in this place. If you can trim some of your low end, you'll get a lot more definition, and I promise you the bass will still be powerful out front." We're often reasonable people!
And sound men, for goodness sakes, walk around the club and listen from more than one vantage point! I love the control of the studio, so I never did a ton of live mixing, but every now and then, a band that I had recorded would ask me to mix a showcase gig for them. I mixed a show at a club that was pretty famous for big reggae acts, and the sound system always had this huge, pillowy, muddy bass, that worked for that stuff, but was horrible for other music (I saw the Chili Peppers there once, and you heard from Flea was rumble). I vowed I would get a good mix that night, and it was easy to get the low end sounding great, so I wondered what the problem was for these other sound guys. Then I stepped off the mixing platform to walk around the room, and as soon as I did, I got hit with the giant muddy rumble. I spent the next 10 minutes hopping on and off the riser, and was able to dial it in, but for all the shows I saw at that club, had nobody ever stepped off the riser?!
The sound man also has to understand the system. I'm not saying that's the issue with the OP, but a lot of today's systems have way too much power and way too many subs. That's fine for that annoying "slam you in the chest" kick drum that's popular in a lot of music, but it's just wrong for a lot of other music. I saw a triple bill at BB King's in NYC a while back. The first act was Bob Brotzman - killer solo acoustic slide player, who does some percussion stuff on the guitar as well. Every time he hit the guitar, the audience was just crushed with the thump. Next act - the Campbell Brothers - sacred steel based gospel funk/blues. Again, we're just getting killed with low end. I walk around the place to make sure it's not just where I'm sitting, and no, it's everywhere. The 3rd act is Sonny Landreth, and I had just helped record his live record. I didn't want to have a confrontation with the sound guy, but I really wasn't going to enjoy the show with the low end the way it was, so bracing for a battle, I went up to talk to him. As it turned out, I didn't have to give the guy any of my background, or fight about why he should listen to me - the guy was very open. Way better mix for that set.
As an engineer, I've worked with folks who had their acts totally together, and I've worked with folks who needed a lot of coaching. Approached correctly, most folks are pretty open to that. As a player, I've had awesome sound men (the guy at the big outdoor gig going up to every single box and putting a little piece of tape on it. I ask what he's doing and he tells me he's checking the phase on each one and doesn't want to miss any!) and some lousy ones (the guy who "fell asleep" at the board comes to mind). It definitely works best when the band and the sound guy are both good and on the same page.
