A soundman's rant to younger players.

[mbrancalion]

I particularly appreciated Dave Klausner's post.
And i strongly didn't "appreciate" the posters who wrote some thing similar to a "i'm gonna play, and you use your sliders".

I'm a bassist and a (non professional) live soundman. I tend to do the latter very sparsely, as my hearing suffers from loud sounds all night (ringing in the ears for 4-5 days, etc). But invariably i'm required to do some, sooner or later .....
And i couldn't agree more with the OP's point of view.......

Personally, when i mix a band i don't know, i ask them to play, individually or also as a band (by having them play one song, for example), with me in front of them onstage, with the PA off, so that i can have an idea of what single musicians sounds like. In particular i listen to the drummer and bassist.
Then, i try, as much as i can, to replicate "in big" their own sound.

In most cases i did sound, i had to eq the electric bass, also in a heavy way, and often compress it. I rarely, but VERY RARELY, heard a bassist with a sound that can work in "plug & play" way.


In the end, as many other have said, my thought is: try to mix live sound, sometimes. There's a line that separates (and in this thread it's clearly visible) people who are aware of the troubles in mixing a band, and people who are not. The vision of things changes drastically ........

 

[Jazzdogg]

I have worked on teaching my students this same thing. The sound of the whole band is more important than how you sound to yourself. You can't crank the low end on stage and expect it to sound great in the mix. I think more experienced players learn this by playing many gigs, and are more aware of the sound of the other players around them, and how their sound fits in.

+1 In addition to pointing out the need for bassists to have a clear understanding of how low frequencies sit in the mix and interact with the built environment, your argument might also be considered an implicit recommendation of in-ear-monitors, which, when well mixed, can provide a better representation of the band's sound than a stage awash in loudspeakers.

When I'm working sound with a band, I like to burn a CD for them so they can hear what I hear at FOH, and what the audience hears. Problems usually center around managing the noise floor on stage, and collaborating on the band's overall sound (and EQ), instead of the ego-driven needs of individual players.

Of the problems encountered by soundmen, one of the most difficult can be communicating about issues that can be technically complex (involves months of study - including math & science content ); in 40+ years, the vast majority of the musicians I've worked with - including touring pros - haven't studied sound.

Collaboration between sound and musicians is imperative, but not always easy, especially when the parties aren't equally proficient in the nuanced language of sound reinforcement. Good sound is a blend of art and science, and, like good music, it's usually best when everyone collaborates and cooperates.

 

[walterw]

Lol, so your rant is less about tone and more about bad playing technique and poor arrangement?

this is big, and worthy of quoting.

so much of getting a "good" sound as a band is arrangement; keeping sounds out of the way of other sounds, giving each instrument its own place in the song, making room for the vocals, etc.

 

[AMJBASS]

+1 In addition to pointing out the need for bassists to have a clear understanding of how low frequencies sit in the mix and interact with the built environment, your argument might also be considered an implicit recommendation of in-ear-monitors, which, when well mixed, can provide a better representation of the band's sound than a stage awash in loudspeakers.

When I'm working sound with a band, I like to burn a CD for them so they can hear what I hear at FOH, and what the audience hears. Problems usually center around managing the noise floor on stage, and collaborating on the band's overall sound (and EQ), instead of the ego-driven needs of individual players.

Of the problems encountered by soundmen, one of the most difficult can be communicating about issues that can be technically complex (involves months of study - including math & science content ); in 40+ years, the vast majority of the musicians I've worked with - including touring pros - haven't studied sound.

Collaboration between sound and musicians is imperative, but not always easy, especially when the parties aren't equally proficient in the nuanced language of sound reinforcement. Good sound is a blend of art and science, and, like good music, it's usually best when everyone collaborates and cooperates.

While I agree that in ears are ideal when mixing a band, I can't stand playing with them. I find that as a bassist I play off of the "feel" I get from a good cabinet as well as the detail and air that you hear. I would rather have a lower stage volume and cut the low end(or raise the cabinet off of the ground/point it up at me as a monitor). I think the key is that so many bands/players play so loud on stage, and greatly boost the low end. That is really what wrecks the mix out front. A lot of players just don't understand that point though...

 

[guy n. cognito]

I'm a bassist. Not a soundman. I've spent slot of time and money getting the tone I prefer. As a soundman, your job is to reproduce that tone in the pa for all to hear. I do not want, or need your opinion on my tone. Just make it louder so that the audience can hear it.

When I work with a soundman, I ask him to com on stage and LISTEN to my rig. You'd be surprised how many soundman don't listen prior to running through the pa. Once he's listened, I tell him "make it sound like that, out there.". Good ones do it without complaint. Bad ones don't.

Tell a guitars you want a pre eq di and see how fast he rips your head off. Why should bassists settle for less?

 

[fokof]

Lol, so your rant is less about tone and more about bad playing technique and poor arrangement?

Everything is important.
Your "tone" or "your sound" should be part of the arrangements , and the lesser experienced/talented people doesn't take that in consideration. Playing too should be taken to consideration. How many times have we seen players trying too complicated stuff for their technic , so what do you think it does to a Band's FOH sound ? It will sound like Flam/garbage even if the sound is very good. It's a whole. Maybe this is another thread subject......
It's not buying the bass/amp/FX wich is "flavor of the month" over here that will give you a good sound for your band !

The guys that have the " sh*t the fu** up and do your job" attitude clearly don't give a damn about the band's sound AS A WHOLE. All they care is about their own personal sound , wich is OK in your bedroom , but not enough to another level.
Personaly I always ask the Soundman if my signal is OK and if I need to change anything. It's a team work , we're there for the paying public.

It's sometimes very easy to put the blame on the soundman.....
I have a pair of very very large shoulders

EDIT ; BTW , I'm not into the bar scene .... neither as a bass player or soundman ....

 

[guy n. cognito]

The guys that have the " sh*t the fu** up and do your job" attitude clearly don't give a damn about the band's sound AS A WHOLE. All they care is about their own personal sound , wich is OK in your bedroom , but not enough to another level.
Personaly I always ask the Soundman if my signal is OK and if I need to change anything. It's a team work , we're there for the paying public.

It's sometimes very easy to put the blame on the soundman.....
I have a pair of very very large shoulders

EDIT ; BTW , I'm not into the bar scene .... neither as a bass player or soundman ....

.

Or.....it's that they have spent more time considering their tone, mix and arrangement than you could ever possibly imagine, and they don't want to be second-guessed by some random soundguy who's listened a grand total of 30 seconds.

 

[fokof]

.

Or.....it's that they have spent more time considering their tone, mix and arrangement than you could ever possibly imagine, and they don't want to be second-guessed by some random soundguy who's listened a grand total of 30 seconds.

If he has that kind of experience and that kind of conscience, it means he has his own soundman.



I know a lot of people who spent a lot of time too practicing and buying stuff , doesn't mean anything.....
I'm talking general , not about you specificaly as I don't know you. ( and the other way)

EDIT; and also read the last two words of the thread title

 

[KingRazor]

I started learning how to mix at the same time I started learning how to play bass. Really fortunate for me.

 

[Queg]

.

Or.....it's that they have spent more time considering their tone, mix and arrangement than you could ever possibly imagine, and they don't want to be second-guessed by some random soundguy who's listened a grand total of 30 seconds.

While I may agree with you in spirit, this is a little harsh. If the sound person (sorry, had to do it, plenty of great female engineers) is mixing for the limitations of a particular space and your personal tone, but LOUDER will cause problems (standing waves, etc), then they should have the option of making necessary corrections, ie notching your tone to adjust for the room's idiosyncrasies. I try to keep this in mind when I hear a soundboard recording that sounds bad, I take it as evidence that the sound person was actually doing their job. Of course, this mainly applies to smaller clubs and perhaps isn't so on-topic with the OP's outdoor jazz fest issues.

 

[KingRazor]

I don't care what a bassist thinks about how loud they should be, if you're too loud I'm turning you down, period.

 

[randaddy]

(My first post on Talkbass... it's good to be here.)

Great thread!

I believe the OP has given some very good advice, and yet I'm reading some real "resentment' from some posters.

My guess is that the less experienced are not wanting to believe that what he says is indeed true... but it is.

As a fifteen year "veteran" of bass, and with a decade of running sound, I know that this is a touchy topic, and emotions can get in the way of reason. But the truth is that live sound can very easily sound very bad!
So, is it the band's fault or the soundman's fault?

You see, a band wants to blame the soundman for ruining their sound, but they want to take the credit for sounding good.

Truth is, it takes a good soundman and a band that knows how to give the soundman what he (or she) needs to work with. Live sound is not the same as garage playing, and thinking that it is, only shows a lack of knowledge.

How do we gain the knowledge that we need?
Listen to the more experienced! (The OP for instance.)

 

[mid_life_crisis]

After skimming through the previous posts, it seems the optimum approach would be something like this:

1) Band sets up so their sound is right in their monitors, something they can hear and control.
2) Soundperson comes up on stage and listens to a song or two - preferably two songs as different as the band will play - so (s)he knows how the band wants to sound.
3) Soundperson goes out to the board and does their level best to bring that sound to the audience.
4) The band trusts the soundperson to get the house mix right and leaves their settings alone (no screwing with the settings to try to make yourself "stand out" once the show starts).

In other words, trust each other and work together to put out a great show for the audience. Which is why you're there, right?

 

[MatticusMania]

But ya know, I'm hearing more than my fair share of garbage sound from so called pro sound engineers lately.

Couple this with the fact that as they (sound engineers) gain experience, they also gain a lot of engineering knowledge and a "know it all" attitude, and I'm increasingly having a tough time finding respect for what they do and what they claim to stand for.

It just seems like so many would rather bludgeon you to death with facts and engineering principles rather than acknowledge their own shortcomings as audio engineers. How does that reconcile with a musician's attitude of always learning, always being open to hearing and trying new things? It doesn't - at least, i can't make it reconcile.

Nope - too often its stuff like: "Don't pair a 4x10 with a 1x15 because it WILL sound like garbage" (Followed by a baffling series of engineering principles and citations that are more designed to stifle opposition than they are to find a good reasonable middle ground) - Even when real players with real experience prove otherwise on a daily basis.

It sounds to me like youve just been dealing with bad sound guys. I run sound on occasion as well, I would never tell someone that their gear is the problem. A good soundman should be able to make any gear sound good FOH. I might ask you to turn your stage volume down some if its interfering with FOH but what cabs or gear you decide to use is your own choice. My goal is to make whatever you are using sound good, not just to me, but the audience, and your band as well. You tell me you want more bass FOH or in your monitors, I'll give it to you. You say you need a little more highs, sure. However, I can only turn something so far up or down before it either become inaudible or starts feeding back, at which point, its now your turn to adjust.

Unlike the soundguys you describe, I don't work with a know it all attitude. I work from a "I know how to do this, lets work together to make you sound great" standpoint. I know how to get you the sound you want, but you need to communicate to me what that is, and I'll communicate to you what needs to be done to get it. Ive worked with plenty of bands that have the "I know how we sound, like this" attitude and sounded horrible because the guitarist wasn't willing to turn his amp volume down a few notches and totally overpowered their stage volume. They sounded like crap, blamed me, and paid me in full.

 

[mbrancalion]

Listen to the more experienced!

A thing that younger people, ormonally, tend to avoid ....
Wrongly ......

 

[Eublet]

A musician who has never really sat at the board with a great engineer during a sound check and witnessed the kind of things they can do really has no idea what these people are capable of. It really as a case of shock and awe on the few occasions I've been able to do this. Those guys can turn knobs so quickly and just jump from channel to channel that you can hear the sound literally transforming in front of you. Goose bumps, just like watching a master musician. I think some of you who are being critical have likely done little more than sitting at the sound board with some amateur in a local bar or church. That's completely different. Accusing a true sound engineer of doing nothing more than pushing sliders to me is an insult beyond description.

 

[taurus1]

I too am a bassist and do live sound as well. I will break it down as simple as I can. when you work with experienced pros, there is rarely an issue, or even a need for discussion. when you work with inexperienced amateurs, the sky's the limit on what kind of ******** you're in for. even their girlfriends/ friends will come up and try to tell you how to mix. frankly I'm completely fed up with it, it just isn't worth the money/effort/******** that you have to go through. next time you board an airplane, walk up to cockpit and tell the pilot how to fly the plane.

 

[pbagley]

There is a lot of variables on a show and can't comment on your particular situation , too many variables;
Acoustics , backline, quality of PA/equipement , etc....

I don't know you so don't take it too harsh but is it possible that maybe that's what you sound like ?

My point is ; even though you guys sound terrific in your practice room or in your bedroom that doesn't mean that you will sound like this on a multi K-watts PA.

It is possible. I am used to the live sound we put out in bars where the PA is pretty much for vocal support only (touch of guitar, touch of drums, self mixed from stage). I learned long ago that the "bedroom tone" gets lost in most of the dives I play. My tone perspective is from walking out about 50 feet or so from the stage... when the venue is large enough that is. I don't really care what it sounds like in my little bit of space on stage next to my amp as long as I can hear what note I'm playing. FOH is what is important.

Putting a slightly finer point on my tone quest - I'm looking for the late '60s/early '70's tube amp bass tone we hear on so many recordings from that era. It's not a perfect bass EQ, but it is a familiar one and it does seem to sit in the mix about as well as any I've tried for the style of music I play. It is not modern, it is not muddy.

Answering your other point - There is no reason on earth that I should not be able to deliver that same tone in a multi K-watt PA unless the operator is completely clueless. My recent experience at a local large hall with their own sound crew was the old "nod like you know what is being said until they go away" routine. The video sound told a tale of deep muddy bass tone. Awesome. Thanks for all the help.

I'll admit that the DI tone of the bass is most likely much different than what I want, especially with an unfamiliar DI through an unfamiliar system. This is why I talked to the sound guy before we played. At a more familiar venue/system (church) I've been using a Hartke pedal recently, to give a bit of amp simulation, where the silent stage (except for drums) is employed. Not sure if it's working or not, but one of four sound guys has given it the thumbs up. I don't think the other three have turned up the bass enough to notice the difference.

Don't get too defensive. I don't think you've mixed sound for me, and from what I've read I doubt you'd EQ me into the basement of oblivion.

All the best,

- Paul

 

[Eublet]

Answering your other point - There is no reason on earth that I should not be able to deliver that same tone in a multi K-watt PA unless the operator is completely clueless. My recent experience at a local large hall with their own sound crew was the old "nod like you know what is being said until they go away" routine. The video sound told a tale of deep muddy bass tone. Awesome. Thanks for all the help.

Problem with your perspective IME is that you might not be able to walk out in front of the system at a huge gig, especially at a festival like the OP is talking about. Quick check and your into your first song. Stage mix tends to be hit or miss for the first song or to. Stage mixing is usually off to side of the stage, and your communicating with those guys a good bit during your gig to get the stage volume right. As far as what's going on out front, you have no clue.

At an outdoor gig, there is no reflection of the FOH PA, and you usually can't tell what's coming out for the audience. Line arrays might be hanging 50 feet in the air, and they might be 10-20 feet in front of a raised stage. You can't walk out in front. Subs are on the ground off to the side, and you can feel them a bit, but nothing tonally. Stage volume is usually very low, such that you can here one another using a fairly forceful talking voice, but short of yelling or shouting. Monitors or backline equipment is not blaringly loud at all.

And no, your tone as you perceive it will likely never be in the FOH. I've never once heard the bass in the FOH sound anything like it does standing in front of a bass rig, whether I'm playing or watching someone else play. The sound out front is completely different. Getting a great sound is certainly possible, but IME it's never what the bass player would choose to have on stage. The bass is deep and rumbling in your chest, with a bit of presence in the upper-mids to provide note distinction. All that low-mid push is completely gone. The cool thing is that it works great though, combined with a properly mixed kick drum, and everything else on top, it gets the audience moving because they can feel it punching them.

Hard to explain, and IMHO bass players at these types of events never worry about their tone. You watch a handful of bands before you sound great, and you just worry about being able to hear yourself and your bandmates when you get on stage. Everything else is gravy. Let the Engineer that is 200-300 feet out out front handle the rest.

 

[ga_edwards]

As much as I appreciate the OP's rant, and understand that mixing for around 50 bands in quick succession is difficult and hard work, from the band's perspective (and yes I've done quite a few of these type of gigs), sometimes all we can do is plug in and hope for the best.

Even the more experienced guys realise we aren't going to be able to get 'our' sound with a quick soundcheck with an unfamiliar setup and soundman. Heck, sometimes I've not even using my own amp (which I really don't like doing if I can help it). But I'm prepared for it. My sound is relatively even across the spectrum, and I have an amp that is relatively uncoloured and whose eq pretty much lives in the neutral position.

However, some of these younger band don't have the experience or knowledge how to setup their sound for these kind of gigs, for some of them it's possibly their first ever gig. I was at one where each band had a 45 min slot, one young band finished after less than 20mins as they had run out of songs!. Anyway I digress. If the sound chap has a problem with mine or another band members sound then he needs to tell us. It could be something particular to the venue or something I've always been doing wrong, or something he's not grasping about our sound. It's all very well ranting about crap sound after the event, but if these guys and girls aren't aware of the problem, they aren't going to know how to fix it themselves and make your life easier, and they are never going to learn for future.

The OP says he does a rough mix in headphones, which he's been doing for long enough to get a good idea how it will project in the FOH. I assume you also have a talkback mic to talk to the stage? If there's a problem with someone's sound that a quick turn of an eq knob would fix - like turn down your low end a touch it's too boomy - then tell them. Whilst I appreciate you're doing really quick turnaround mixes, surely this would be easier than fighting with crap sound and trying to polish a turd?

Communication as ever is key.

As too why it seems to be a common trait in young bands in the past few years compared 20 years ago when it was easier I don't know. Perhaps one could argue than technology has advanced somewhat for the budding bass player, and we have more options to shape and abuse our sound. Years ago it was clean P/J/MM or nothing (I joke of course, but you get the idea).

It could be that we have been going through a musical period for the past 10 years or so where there is no 'one' musical trend going on. There's so many genre's lately but nothing that stands out as era defining like there was in the 60s, 70s, 80s and to an extent the 90s. I mean, even during the 90s you knew the grunge movement and Britpop indie sound were era defining. I didn't have that feeling in the 00s, there was just so much going on. As such, everyone has a different sound or a sound they aspire too that can be wildly different. Unless you communicate with the musicians you're setting yourself up for a world of trouble.

It was so much easier back in the day when everyone sounded the same