A soundman's rant to younger players.

[JohnMCA72]

After skimming through the previous posts, it seems the optimum approach would be something like this:

1) Band sets up so their sound is right in their monitors, something they can hear and control.
2) Soundperson comes up on stage and listens to a song or two - preferably two songs as different as the band will play - so (s)he knows how the band wants to sound.
3) Soundperson goes out to the board and does their level best to bring that sound to the audience.
4) The band trusts the soundperson to get the house mix right and leaves their settings alone (no screwing with the settings to try to make yourself "stand out" once the show starts).

In other words, trust each other and work together to put out a great show for the audience. Which is why you're there, right?

That's exactly how I like to work when I run sound. Many people try to bring up FOH 1st, then monitors. I have 2 problems with that:

1. Monitors will bleed over into FOH, changing that mix.
2. Sometimes, we never get the chance to properly mix the monitors at all if it's left to last.

I'm primarily a bass player, & I love it when somebody works with me that way. As a bass player, though, I consider it my main job to be an entertainer. I don't agonize over "my sound" largely because I don't find it worth the time & trouble. If I can hear every note, I'm happy because I can do my job, & FOH sound is somebody else's job (who is a professional, that I trust to do their job well). If the band sounds good out front, I'm happy. Since I'm not out front, I have no idea what that sounds like anyway, except via feedback from the audience, & if I'm doing my job properly, they'll have a great time no matter whether any particular tone is achieved for my instrument. Most of them would never notice anyway, or really care if they did as long as everything else is done the way it's supposed to.

 

[AMJBASS]

These last two posts were spot on. Many times in situations like this you don't even have the time to do a full sound check. You just need to do your job and know that its more important that those listening to you are hearing a good sound. I usually send a flat signal to the desk via pre EQ DI and let the sound guys do their thing.

 

[Terracite]

OP: what can new bassists do to be (or at least seem) more professional? How do we check/change our sound to be better through a PA without access to a PA? Headphones maybe, sourced from our amps XLR outs and or DI? Maybe mic our cabs then through headphones?

 

[Eublet]

OP: what can new bassists do to be (or at least seem) more professional? How do we check/change our sound to be better through a PA without access to a PA? Headphones maybe, sourced from our amps XLR outs and or DI? Maybe mic our cabs then through headphones?

I'll respond with my 2 cents.

Send a Pre-EQ signal. That's the single best thing you can do. If you have lots of FX on your tone, then taking two DI's is typical for bass, one clean and one dirty. Still, don't run EQ in your dirty channel. Set EQ after FX, on your head if possible.

Other than that, always be kind, thankful, appreciative, and humble before, during, and after the gig. If the engineer is happy and talkative, then be friendly. If he's all business and seems to be rushing or flustered, then keep your comments to him short but kind. Don't annoy him with details. He has his own list of things that he has to do to make the show start on time. Don't consume his time by talking to much.

Sometimes, the sound guy will be nice because he knows he should be, but he's trying to move on and not act annoyed by you. Try to pick up on that also and let him move on.

Yeah, there's room for you to get walked all over if the guy is a total a-hole, but really what does it matter? You're still better off in the long run by being kind and humble than you are confrontational. Maybe he's just having a bad day for personal reasons, but he'll remember you were cool and he'll work better with you down the road. If you're an ass though, he might dismiss you forever.

 

[Dbassmon]

Well said Eublet

 

[Ben Clarke]

excellent advice, Eublet.

lil story, since we're all sharing:

We opened for Gord Downie about a month ago - he's the singer from Tragically Hip and has a solo record out. It was a big to-do outside on a big Stageline. The sound provider was one of the top companies around here. I have met many of their employees over the years and they have all been super nice, professional and nothing but a pleasure to be around. Well, we show up at our scheduled time - headliner had been soundchecked long before and we were running on time w/ no issues.

Well, the girl running mons was wiring our inputs, and I see her put a basic DI on my rig. They work ok and sound fine - I probably sold it to them. So I approach her and ask if we can just run out of my Demeter pre, offering it pre-EQ as well. She says, no this is how we do it. I say I understand, but this is one of the best preamps ever made and I've done a ton of shows without any problems. She says, no, this is how we always do it and it'll probably buzz, turns around and walks away.

Now, I know the FOH tech well, know the owner of the company well (I've sold them line arrays), and could have put my foot down. Instead, I just went back stage, had a Heiny and moved on. Just after that, her boss shows up and greets me like an old friend right in front of her. I didn't mention it, just gave her a little look as she looked on in fear... We had a great set, my monitors were perfect and life went on.

We play another show with them as providers next Wednesday. I expect that we'll use the Jensen DI built in to the Demeter (an early unit likely built by Mr. D himself, btw) and my monitors willl still be fine.

 

[wade_b]

It sounds to me like youve just been dealing with bad sound guys. I run sound on occasion as well, I would never tell someone that their gear is the problem. A good soundman should be able to make any gear sound good FOH. I might ask you to turn your stage volume down some if its interfering with FOH but what cabs or gear you decide to use is your own choice. My goal is to make whatever you are using sound good, not just to me, but the audience, and your band as well. You tell me you want more bass FOH or in your monitors, I'll give it to you. You say you need a little more highs, sure. However, I can only turn something so far up or down before it either become inaudible or starts feeding back, at which point, its now your turn to adjust.

Unlike the soundguys you describe, I don't work with a know it all attitude. I work from a "I know how to do this, lets work together to make you sound great" standpoint. I know how to get you the sound you want, but you need to communicate to me what that is, and I'll communicate to you what needs to be done to get it. Ive worked with plenty of bands that have the "I know how we sound, like this" attitude and sounded horrible because the guitarist wasn't willing to turn his amp volume down a few notches and totally overpowered their stage volume. They sounded like crap, blamed me, and paid me in full.

I just got back from a gig that had pro sound.

The soundguys were great, as you describe.

And we got a ton of compliments and a likely repeat engagement there.

But then, we don't do anything extreme. I told em I had a DI and that it's post-eq, but I also told em that I run my tone flat and cut bass a little.

They asked what we wanted in the monitors, we told em - and then the only thing I requested was that they lower our lead vox monitor level a little to help with the feedback the jr. soundguy was dealing with pre-show, and all was well.

I did do one thing to avoid the big dumb bass. First we chatted with the soundguys and told em what kind of stuff we do. Then, I soundchecked with the P bass, but immediately switched to my Jazz when the show started. I did that because when I got in front of the mains while playing the P, I could hear the beginnings of that big dumb sound that I despise.

 

[fokof]

The OP says he does a rough mix in headphones, which he's been doing for long enough to get a good idea how it will project in the FOH. I assume you also have a talkback mic to talk to the stage? If there's a problem with someone's sound that a quick turn of an eq knob would fix - like turn down your low end a touch it's too boomy - then tell them. Whilst I appreciate you're doing really quick turnaround mixes, surely this would be easier than fighting with crap sound and trying to polish a turd?

I'll always ask when my turd polishing abilities gets limited by the equipement.

 

[fokof]

OP: what can new bassists do to be (or at least seem) more professional? How do we check/change our sound to be better through a PA without access to a PA? Headphones maybe, sourced from our amps XLR outs and or DI? Maybe mic our cabs then through headphones?

Record the whole band flat , as you are Live or in your practice room and listen to the result in a good , full range reference. Key word here is full range.
It will give you a better picture of the band's spectrum and your place in it.

It's always a question a reference.

 

[bucephylus]

The only thing about this thread is that there seems to be a predominant attitude of "the sound guy is always right" and "the little creep bass player is only listening to him/herself and unaware of the group sound."

Then, we all discuss the mix as though there is some constant - "THE MIX."

I don't know if I've seen it all over the years, but it is certainly true that you can trust an excellent sound person to do the right thing, and it is really important to work with these folks.

But, I am also painfully aware of personal and subjective differences of opinion as to what the mix should be. And this can be pretty extreme. As I mentioned earlier, our current sound guy, who is a bass player, apparently does a lot of listening to music in his car (no sub-woofer), because that is where he truly believes the bass should be in the mix.

I myself hear mixes totally differently whether the same tune is being played on the juke in the club (strong bass these days) or on my JBL's at home (more balanced mix. So, to the sound guys, what is your reference? Do you feel this is an absolute? Probably not completely and then you get into differences of opinion.

Honestly, with the real pros at the bigger venues, I have had zero issues, and in fact they tend to pump the bass up past where i would put it after they hear that the playing is solid. However, in my current club act, the sound guy, who I like a lot, still thinks the guitars should be driving the mix and wants even the stage mix to have the bass so far in the background that its almost not there. And I truly believe this is a simple difference of opinion.

So, my only point is that there do exist differences in opinion as to the objective, even among experienced players/sound people. As stated earlier, the only solution to this is to try to have good communications, be gracious, and have fun. My 2c.

 

[bucephylus]

Record the whole band flat , as you are Live or in your practice room and listen to the result in a good , full range reference. Key word here is full range.
It will give you a better picture of the band's spectrum and your place in it.

It's always a question a reference.

+1 good advice, even for personal rehearsal.

 

[ga_edwards]

I would say if there's one thing younger/less experienced bassists can do to avoid potential problems like this is to invest in the right gear. So many people get their sound from their amp by pushing eq and filters to the extreme. IMO if an amp doesn't sound remotely close to what you want when running it neutral, move along.

Something that sounds right, our of the box, will be easier for you and easier for the soundman. Of course these things cost money, but it's a worthwhile investment that can last a lifetime if you take care of it.

 

[pbagley]

The only thing about this thread is that there seems to be a predominant attitude of "the sound guy is always right" and "the little creep bass player is only listening to him/herself and unaware of the group sound."

<snip>

My 2c.

Well said. Much better than my rant of yesterday, which upon reading back this morning makes me sound a bit self centered.

Sorry all. But if the bassist don't care about the bass then who will?

Back on topic - I have had very good professional sound people employed by the venue who did a wonderful job. At least one gave the initial impression that he would be doing things his way and that he didn't care what we (the band) thought. Probably best in that case since most of the band had little or no experience working with a sound guy. A little communication went a long way that night. When he got to the bass I asked my usual question - "What works best for you - the post EQ DI from my amp or a DI before the amp?" I saw a change in attitude. Before we started we asked if he could make a board tape so we could have some feedback on this performance. Even though the answer was yes, there was some "I'm not going to mix for the tape you know, just for house sound." That was fine, this was mainly intended to help the band improve. I'm still convinced that he did the bet job to date of making the band sound like we sound only louder. That was in 1998. The board tape sounded great. I like a guy who lowers your expectations then delivers excellence.

I get to play a larger place with a sound guy about once a year on average, which is not a lot compared to many of you. The rest of the time I get to run sound from stage while playing bass. Wireless is great - the room never sounds the same as the stage in the bars I get to play. Experience says the house will never sound like the stage, especially my little spot back by the drummer.

I sure wish that these occasional experiences with sound guy were always positive. Sadly they are hit and miss with about half (including earlier this year) being a disappointment.

Coming full circle - The sound guy is often right, and they generally do a good job of making sure everyone in the band is heard, but about 50% of the time in my very limited experience they impose their personal "sound" onto a band. I'd just like things to be a little more transparent, allowing the musicians a bit of control over their sound out in the house. Besides, maybe I want to sound "bad".

All I got for a Friday morning. Best to all,

- Paul, the not so little creep bass player.

 

[JohnMCA72]

The only thing about this thread is that there seems to be a predominant attitude of "the sound guy is always right" and "the little creep bass player is only listening to him/herself and unaware of the group sound."

Then, we all discuss the mix as though there is some constant - "THE MIX."

I don't know if I've seen it all over the years, but it is certainly true that you can trust an excellent sound person to do the right thing, and it is really important to work with these folks.

But, I am also painfully aware of personal and subjective differences of opinion as to what the mix should be. And this can be pretty extreme. As I mentioned earlier, our current sound guy, who is a bass player, apparently does a lot of listening to music in his car (no sub-woofer), because that is where he truly believes the bass should be in the mix.

I myself hear mixes totally differently whether the same tune is being played on the juke in the club (strong bass these days) or on my JBL's at home (more balanced mix. So, to the sound guys, what is your reference? Do you feel this is an absolute? Probably not completely and then you get into differences of opinion.

Honestly, with the real pros at the bigger venues, I have had zero issues, and in fact they tend to pump the bass up past where i would put it after they hear that the playing is solid. However, in my current club act, the sound guy, who I like a lot, still thinks the guitars should be driving the mix and wants even the stage mix to have the bass so far in the background that its almost not there. And I truly believe this is a simple difference of opinion.

So, my only point is that there do exist differences in opinion as to the objective, even among experienced players/sound people. As stated earlier, the only solution to this is to try to have good communications, be gracious, and have fun. My 2c.

If you've got 5 people in a band, you've also got 5 different opinions about what sounds "right". Include everybody in the crew & audience & you're still never going to get 2 identical opinions.

Everybody has to allow each other the space to do their job. As a bass player, I play the bass. That's my job. I also sing, but only 1 part. There isn't enough of me to go around, that I can also play all the guitar, drum, keyboard, vocal, etc. parts, too. I have to trust the other players to do what they do & accept that it isn't the 100% optimum best-possible part that I would play if I were doing it myself.

Same for sound (& lights/visual effects, too!). Every single time I'm on a stage, the sound is being run in some way that's different from how I'd do it. I'm not running sound, somebody else is. What it really comes down to is the ability to delegate. Let people do their jobs. Assume that they're pros until they show you otherwise. If someone can't do their job, get someone else to do it (same for any crew position as for any musician in the band). If somebody wants 100% total control & freedom, then the solution is to be a 1-man band with no support crew so that they can do everything the way they want it done.

 

[WayneP]

Fokof, have you ever considered inserting a parametric EQ on the bass channel?

Speaking as both a bass player and sound guy, my goal is to get the bass so that each note from the highest to the lowest are clearly heard. That&#8217;s what the audiences wants above all else, I expect, and you shouldn&#8217;t get any complaints from your fans of the mix being &#8220;muddy.&#8221; If you can achieve your &#8220;sound&#8221; on top of that, that&#8217;s great. But IMO the audience&#8217;s needs trump the musician&#8217;s. After all, the fans are the ones paying the bills, folks.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt




Pedulla Club #45

 

[fokof]

........
But, I am also painfully aware of personal and subjective differences of opinion as to what the mix should be. And this can be pretty extreme. As I mentioned earlier, our current sound guy, who is a bass player, apparently does a lot of listening to music in his car (no sub-woofer), because that is where he truly believes the bass should be in the mix.

I myself hear mixes totally differently whether the same tune is being played on the juke in the club (strong bass these days) or on my JBL's at home (more balanced mix. So, to the sound guys, what is your reference? Do you feel this is an absolute? Probably not completely and then you get into differences of opinion.

Excellent point.

For me , everything is in the reference.
I think the main reason this was happening is only because of bad reference. If your bass amp doesn't reproduce well below 60Hz , how can you know what low end you are feeding the FOH ?

At home , my reference is 2 X LSR28P + sub , in a well tuned room. I always practice through these.
And my monitor when I play Live is either IEM kit or Small PA. ( RCF ART310A top + RCF ART902AS sub )
On smaller gigs , I only use the 310A.
These are not the best in the world but through these , I consider that I have a better idea of my "Tone" than if I would play through a normal bass amp.
I know I'm the only one (or almost!) using this type of gear but it's been good to me so far as bass player.

 

[fokof]

IMO if an amp doesn't sound remotely close to what you want when running it neutral, move along.

+1

 

[fokof]

Fokof, have you ever considered inserting a parametric EQ on the bass channel?

No
This summer , I had a PM4000 wich IMHO is one the best EQ on an analogic board, period. The XL4 would be the only one I would prefer over the PM4000's EQ. A scalpel.
I also had an XL200 wich is also very good.

 

[aborgman]

how can you possibly assume that a band, or a bassist, has no idea what they want to sound like, or how they want to sound.

Because in my experience, approximately 75% of bassists have ZERO idea what they sound like out in the crowd and are only interested in how they sound to themselves onstage.

They know what THEY want to sound like, but generally have no idea how they sound anywhere other than right in front of their cab or how THEIR sound interacts with the rest of the band to form a coherent (or incoherent) whole.

 

[ric stave]

Because in my experience, approximately 75% of bassists have ZERO idea what they sound like out in the crowd and are only interested in how they sound to themselves onstage.

They know what THEY want to sound like, but generally have no idea how they sound anywhere other than right in front of their cab or how THEIR sound interacts with the rest of the band to form a coherent (or incoherent) whole.

You do realize that approxomately 63% of all statistics are made up and have no basis in fact....