A soundman's rant to younger players.

[Queg]

Because in my experience, approximately 75% of bassists have ZERO idea what they sound like out in the crowd and are only interested in how they sound to themselves onstage.

They know what THEY want to sound like, but generally have no idea how they sound anywhere other than right in front of their cab or how THEIR sound interacts with the rest of the band to form a coherent (or incoherent) whole.

I find this hard to believe. It's very simple to record and listen back to a rehearsal or live show, and I'd be suprised if most groups aren't already doing this. Even if you don't have the resources to multi-track, you can make a decent room recording with a stereo mic and an iPhone.

 

[aborgman]

I find this hard to believe. It's very simple to record and listen back to a rehearsal or live show, and I'd be suprised if most groups aren't already doing this. Even if you don't have the resources to multi-track, you can make a decent room recording with a stereo mic and an iPhone.

Most bands I see and interact with are folks playing 4x45's at a bar for $300-$500 per night.

It's vanishingly rare to see anyone recording themselves (and certainly not multi-track) and they pretty much all run sound from stage. Some are good at it - most aren't.

 

[Queg]

Most bands I see and interact with are folks playing 4x45's at a bar for $300-$500 per night.

It's vanishingly rare to see anyone recording themselves (and certainly not multi-track) and they pretty much all run sound from stage. Some are good at it - most aren't.

Okay, I was on another planet thinking about original acts rather then actual working musicians.. Obviously, when a group is writing its own material the musicians have greater motivation to listen back and analyze their recorded compositions.

 

[shizoz]

It's funny, this relationship between sound guys and bands. I get paid to play bass and engineer sound as well, not usually at the same time, but I have before.. ;0
Anyway, being on the band side, I have been burned by some crappy guys sitting behind the console, and probably truth be told, that is more often than not, but I am playing locally, so no arenas for me. I agree with the fact that if a sound guy lectured me on my tone, I would be a little offended by that, but like I said, it's not too often I get a good sound guy. And I do realize part of the problem is the crap they install around here and call it a PA... I do try and keep a reasonable stage level and keep my basses relatively flat if I have onboard EQ so the sound guy just has a solid tone to work with. If the PA is descent, there shouldn't have to be alot of EQing done to get something worth listening to. (A Meyer rig is definitely good enough)
From a sound guys perspective, the majority of the bass players tend to have too much low end coming from the bass. It seems feeling the bass is synonymous with good tone, and that just ain't the case. I do feel that it is my job to recreate what the band is doing on stage to the audience, bad tone, bad notes and all (but that is somewhat subjective). I EQ from a point of clarity in the mix, where you can here everything happening on the stage, even if what happens on the stage sucks, but I will say, an active bass with the bass knob on +10 does not = clarity. You can't polish a turd without muddying up the water....
I'm probably rambling, but all this to say, good musicians are equally important as good sound guys, and trust is huge in this setting!

 

[Joe Nerve]

I played an outdoor show in a really big park a few weeks ago. There were lots of bands, lots of genres, lots of age groups. Some were incredibly experienced, some were newbies. I saw lots of different amps, and I'm sure every bass player had his own incredibly different thing going on. The sound in the park was absolutely amazing. For all the bands. Many of the musicians were commenting, others just there to see the show were commenting also. I mean, the guy doing sound really knew his game.

So, my point. The soundguy seemed incredibly relaxed, wasn't getting upset with anyone (despite a few instances where it may have been warranted), and wasn't giving any direction to the bands other than a volume tweak here and there.

You can twist, turn, and defend this however you like, but a truly good soundperson's job is to take what they get, and make it work. Not to go passing judgements on musicians and their preferences. A bass player might have very good reason to be EQed in a way that you just can't understand. If he and the rest of the band are comfortable with that, if you're going to do a good job, then it's your responsibility to make it work. And I'm certain that this can be done, I've seen it countless times. If you can't accept that as your responsibility then I can only guess that regardless of how many years and how much experience you have doign this, you're going to do a crappy job, or be miserable doing it because the majority of people aren't going to comply with your wishes.

Not sure what all of the "I'm not talking bar scene" is about either. Seems you're making assumptios or judgements here, but I don't know.

Again, I've worked with countless sound people, "and I'm not talking the bar scene", and the ones that did the best jobs and worked in the biggest places were the ones who pretty much kept their opinions to themselves, talked to us only about volume, and compensated for anything we might be missing because of that in our individual monitors.

Perhaps I get defensive about this because it always seems IME that the soundpeople who talk the most, talk the most about DBs, frequencies, and what others are doing wrong, typically do the worst job. Or I had to much coffee today, and the last time I posted in this thread.

 

[MatticusMania]

You can twist, turn, and defend this however you like, but a truly good soundperson's job is to take what they get, and make it work. Not to go passing judgements on musicians and their preferences. A bass player might have very good reason to be EQed in a way that you just can't understand. If he and the rest of the band are comfortable with that, if you're going to do a good job, then it's your responsibility to make it work. And I'm certain that this can be done, I've seen it countless times. If you can't accept that as your responsibility then I can only guess that regardless of how many years and how much experience you have doign this, you're going to do a crappy job, or be miserable doing it because the majority of people aren't going to comply with your wishes.

Spot on

 

[Eublet]

Okay, I was on another planet thinking about original acts rather then actual working musicians.. Obviously, when a group is writing its own material the musicians have greater motivation to listen back and analyze their recorded compositions.

Original acts are usually made up of non-professionals though, so the recommendation for them to self-analyze is really apparent.

On the other hand, a professional or semi-professional probably got to where they are by doing a lot of self analyzing. You don't get called as a working musician unless you know your place on a stage and in a musical context.

 

[Eublet]

Perhaps I get defensive about this because it always seems IME that the soundpeople who talk the most, talk the most about DBs, frequencies, and what others are doing wrong, typically do the worst job. Or I had to much coffee today, and the last time I posted in this thread.

No, I think you are spot on here. A professional musician or sound engineer is likely going to just do his or her best job and not try to force the other to fit in a mold that they can work with. Kind of goes back to my comments earlier about just being kind and doing your job with as little feather-ruffling as possible. For most pros engineers I've worked with, unless the signal is noisey/too soft/too hot, they'll never say a word about what you are sending them. They'll take it and do their best to make it work. Of course, they have the skill to do that, where an amateur HAS to ask you to do something with your sound in order for them to make it work.

In the end, if you really want to be treated like a professional, then you have to act like it. The OP has made some great comments as to what that looks like for a bass player. I think the folks here who are being critical of those view points perhaps (I don't know for sure) haven't spent enough time in the kind of settings that were mentioned originally to know what is required to make the show a success.

 

[JimmyM]

You can twist, turn, and defend this however you like, but a truly good soundperson's job is to take what they get, and make it work. Not to go passing judgements on musicians and their preferences. A bass player might have very good reason to be EQed in a way that you just can't understand. If he and the rest of the band are comfortable with that, if you're going to do a good job, then it's your responsibility to make it work. And I'm certain that this can be done, I've seen it countless times.

you have no idea how much i agree with that, joe nerve. like i said earlier, there's a fine line between running sound and producing a band live. naturally, a soundman might have to do a little tweaking to make it work for the room, but a good soundman must always remember that their role is not to put their idealized version of what they think the band should sound like above what the band really sounds like.

otoh, a band should be willing to take a little direction if the soundman thinks they're screwing the pooch. unfortunately, the trouble comes when the soundman treats bands like they're idiots and makes bold pronouncements of how crappy they sound and treats them like second graders. and i've seen way too many soundmen like that than i care to ever see. even at my bowzer gigs, i still get occasional soundmen who treat us like we're morons who are there for the express purpose of showing off their scary great pa. and then we have to pull rank and it gets ugly and everybody goes home all mentally beaten up.

a band should always be willing to take advice from a good soundman. but if you want to be treated with respect and listened to when you give a band direction, treat them with respect as well, even if they suck. i don't care if you're being pulled in 15 directions when you have only 5 minutes to change over...don't be short, don't be rude, don't say stupid crap that you know will just piss them off, don't try to produce them in a way you know is anathema to the way they operate (forcing a bassist to use a clean di when he's obviously got a handful of effects, for example), and if they want to do something you think is detrimental to their sound, maybe they know something you don't. or maybe they just suck. in those cases, just do the best you can and even pull them out of the pa if you have to, or let the venue boss deal with them. usually a good "turn down or you're out of here" from the boss works wonders.

bottom line, if you want respect as a soundman, respect the band you're running sound for, simple as that. a lot of those kids bust their asses to put people in that club and give you a job.

 

[JimmyM]

Well, the girl running mons was wiring our inputs, and I see her put a basic DI on my rig. They work ok and sound fine - I probably sold it to them. So I approach her and ask if we can just run out of my Demeter pre, offering it pre-EQ as well. She says, no this is how we do it. I say I understand, but this is one of the best preamps ever made and I've done a ton of shows without any problems. She says, no, this is how we always do it and it'll probably buzz, turns around and walks away.

i think i know her clair bros by any chance? there was some um...lady like that who worked for clair bros who i was ready to punch in the face at a bowzer gig in bethlehem, pa. of course i didn't because she looked like she could probably take me but that whole crew was one of the most arrogant yet incompetent stage crews i've ever had the displeasure of working with. it's funny because clair bros crews are among some of the most competent people i've ever worked with, and these people were just plain idiots who acted like we were merely props for their improperly wired sound system instead of the reason that they had a job that night.

 

[Ben Clarke]

Nope -I (sort of) wish I sold systems to Clair. This is an independent company that really does a great job - they work nationally but happen to be based in this area. I told the story the next Monday at work and found out that this girl has been burned and turned by all the bigger sound co.s around here. She must at least be smart enough not to pull that stuff with headliners or she'd already be running a box mixer and Club Series dreck for $50 a night, ankle deep in piss and stale beer.

That is surprising to hear about a Clair/Showco crew. I guess when the gorilla gets over 300 lbs, quality control must be pretty tough to keep on top of...

i think i know her clair bros by any chance? there was some um...lady like that who worked for clair bros who i was ready to punch in the face at a bowzer gig in bethlehem, pa. of course i didn't because she looked like she could probably take me but that whole crew was one of the most arrogant yet incompetent stage crews i've ever had the displeasure of working with. it's funny because clair bros crews are among some of the most competent people i've ever worked with, and these people were just plain idiots who acted like we were merely props for their improperly wired sound system instead of the reason that they had a job that night.

 

[fokof]

.

I agree with most of your post

So, my point. The soundguy seemed incredibly relaxed, wasn't getting upset with anyone (despite a few instances where it may have been warranted), and wasn't giving any direction to the bands other than a volume tweak here and there.

Like I said 2-3 times here , personaly , I rarely ask the musicians to change anything. With the equipement I have I don't have to.
Were you at the beer after that gig with that soundman ?
Do you know what he was saying about the band's he had that day to his fellow techs ?
You're absolutly , totaly sure the guy didn't any opinion on any of the musicians ?
Hard to beleive......

You can twist, turn, and defend this however you like, but a truly good soundperson's job is to take what they get, and make it work.

I absolutly and totaly agree and that's what I do as a soundman.
That doesn't mean I can't have any opinion on the singer's pitch or on the bass player's tone.

A bass player might have very good reason to be EQed in a way that you just can't understand.

Hummmm.....
A lot of musicians are totaly clueless about how a FOH is happening, and that is the main point of my Thread.
Most bass players EQ for their amps (wich is totaly normal) and as you know bass amps are not flat.
So the reason why they EQ that way ; I totaly understand.

Not sure what all of the "I'm not talking bar scene" is about either. Seems you're making assumptios or judgements here, but I don't know.

Because I'm talking about a big PA on an outside event.
We all know that in a room there are other problems.

Again, I've worked with countless sound people, "and I'm not talking the bar scene", and the ones that did the best jobs and worked in the biggest places were the ones who pretty much kept their opinions to themselves, talked to us only about volume, and compensated for anything we might be missing because of that in our individual monitors.

Again , I totaly agree with you.
Like I stated earlier , I never say my opinion unless the band asks for it , and most of the time they don't ask.
I don't know why nobody asks..... well I have and idea ; maybe it's because it sounds good in front , and all their friends and family say to them that it sounded really good so they don't feel the need to enquire about their sound , thinking "since it sounded good in front , I'm sure my tone was killer"
maybe that's why ........ but I don't know , I've never asked.

Perhaps I get defensive about this because it always seems IME that the soundpeople who talk the most, talk the most about DBs, frequencies, and what others are doing wrong, typically do the worst job. Or I had to much coffee today, and the last time I posted in this thread.

Not too much coffee , it is also my experience.
As a bass player , I've never met a good soundman who was DJ or who repaired TV before.....
The gig I'm refering to is a nice gig. There is a PA tech wich tunes my kit and is very knowledgable about DB's and stuff , I mix.
I just mix.
I'm hired to mix , not to be a PA tech.
Personaly , I know my basics about physics and sound but I haven't studied in acoustics or electronics
( I studied in music )

 

[Joe Nerve]

I agree with most of your post

+1 regarding your post. I'll stop and be your friend now. I may have misinterpreted or misunderstood some of the things you initially said. I think we're probably both on the same page and would get along fine if ever on the same gig. Why do I have a feeling that's gonna happen one day now, also.

 

[guy n. cognito]

I played an outdoor show in a really big park a few weeks ago. There were lots of bands, lots of genres, lots of age groups. Some were incredibly experienced, some were newbies. I saw lots of different amps, and I'm sure every bass player had his own incredibly different thing going on. The sound in the park was absolutely amazing. For all the bands. Many of the musicians were commenting, others just there to see the show were commenting also. I mean, the guy doing sound really knew his game.

So, my point. The soundguy seemed incredibly relaxed, wasn't getting upset with anyone (despite a few instances where it may have been warranted), and wasn't giving any direction to the bands other than a volume tweak here and there.

You can twist, turn, and defend this however you like, but a truly good soundperson's job is to take what they get, and make it work. Not to go passing judgements on musicians and their preferences. A bass player might have very good reason to be EQed in a way that you just can't understand. If he and the rest of the band are comfortable with that, if you're going to do a good job, then it's your responsibility to make it work. And I'm certain that this can be done, I've seen it countless times. If you can't accept that as your responsibility then I can only guess that regardless of how many years and how much experience you have doign this, you're going to do a crappy job, or be miserable doing it because the majority of people aren't going to comply with your wishes.

Not sure what all of the "I'm not talking bar scene" is about either. Seems you're making assumptios or judgements here, but I don't know.

Again, I've worked with countless sound people, "and I'm not talking the bar scene", and the ones that did the best jobs and worked in the biggest places were the ones who pretty much kept their opinions to themselves, talked to us only about volume, and compensated for anything we might be missing because of that in our individual monitors.

Perhaps I get defensive about this because it always seems IME that the soundpeople who talk the most, talk the most about DBs, frequencies, and what others are doing wrong, typically do the worst job. Or I had to much coffee today, and the last time I posted in this thread.

Just wanted to quote this again for truth.

 

[guy n. cognito]

I don't know why nobody asks..... well I have and idea ; maybe it's because it sounds good in front , and all their friends and family say to them that it sounded really good so they don't feel the need to enquire about their sound , thinking "since it sounded good in front , I'm sure my tone was killer"
maybe that's why ........ but I don't know , I've never asked.

With all due respect, I'll reason that most don't ask because they don't care to hear the soundguy's opinion.

Or it could be because most of us have learned from years of experience that offering a soundguy feedback is like talking to a brick wall......most don't care and don't listen anyway.

Most of us don't want or need the soundguy to critique our tone; we simply want him to reproduce the sound we've carefully crafted in the venue. Don't like my tone? Great, tell your friends how terrible it is AFTER the show.

 

[TheDialog]

I'm 23, I've been playing since I was 9 and I began to play live when I was 15. IME I know NOW exactly what I want to get "tone" wise, but it's something that took me 7+ years to figure out and it still changes from time to time. I think versus ranting about it you should be more proactive in the moment and try, in an outgoing, nice way, to help younger folks out and explain why sitting in the mix in a certain way would be beneficial for their band.

I also must add that I believe gear, money and time can play a huge role into this. I love my rig ('71 P, '78 SVT, '00 810AV), but it took years (and a lot of money/buying a lot of gear) to figure out that's what I was all about. Now time is probably the biggest part. Time to practice and develop, as well as, developing an ear for specific tones and how to achieve them. Not to mention, playing clean and even with fingers or using a pick in certain applications (I use a pick in one song live to do a surf style, slap back, palm muted delay a la Spoon's Rob Pope). I'm still learning, I learn something new everyday

Here's a few samples of my tone. Please tell me what you think.
(clean)

 

[azureblue]

I've been in a number of jazz combos and Funk bands, played festivals and clubs, and my peeve with a number of the sound guys is some that do not know what those bands are supposed to sound like, so they throw a RHCP or Fleetwood Mac / rock mix on the band- drums and bass out front and compressed, a lot of low end on the kick and bass. (I got a recording of my jazz combo doing Nardis with a 80's rock mix- gawd). As the guy who knows a little about sound, I got stuck with straightening out the sound man- no, we do not need each drum individually miked for jazz, no, bass is not louder than the rest of the band combined, and the mike for the trumpet is at shoulder level, not down low as a sax. And trying to convince them that a clean, flat mix will work just fine.

 

[Jazzdogg]

I played an outdoor show in a really big park a few weeks ago. There were lots of bands, lots of genres, lots of age groups. Some were incredibly experienced, some were newbies. I saw lots of different amps, and I'm sure every bass player had his own incredibly different thing going on. The sound in the park was absolutely amazing. For all the bands. Many of the musicians were commenting, others just there to see the show were commenting also. I mean, the guy doing sound really knew his game.

So, my point. The soundguy seemed incredibly relaxed, wasn't getting upset with anyone (despite a few instances where it may have been warranted), and wasn't giving any direction to the bands other than a volume tweak here and there.

You can twist, turn, and defend this however you like, but a truly good soundperson's job is to take what they get, and make it work. Not to go passing judgements on musicians and their preferences. A bass player might have very good reason to be EQed in a way that you just can't understand. If he and the rest of the band are comfortable with that, if you're going to do a good job, then it's your responsibility to make it work. And I'm certain that this can be done, I've seen it countless times. If you can't accept that as your responsibility then I can only guess that regardless of how many years and how much experience you have doign this, you're going to do a crappy job, or be miserable doing it because the majority of people aren't going to comply with your wishes.

Not sure what all of the "I'm not talking bar scene" is about either. Seems you're making assumptios or judgements here, but I don't know.

Again, I've worked with countless sound people, "and I'm not talking the bar scene", and the ones that did the best jobs and worked in the biggest places were the ones who pretty much kept their opinions to themselves, talked to us only about volume, and compensated for anything we might be missing because of that in our individual monitors.

Perhaps I get defensive about this because it always seems IME that the soundpeople who talk the most, talk the most about DBs, frequencies, and what others are doing wrong, typically do the worst job. Or I had to much coffee today, and the last time I posted in this thread.

I agree with what you say as it pertains to the frequency domain - as long as the noise floor isn't being exceeded by the band. If a bandmember is playing so loudly that his sound is "contaminating" FOH sound, there's not much the sound professional can do to fix it.

 

[JimmyM]

dialog, you have a killer band. i think you're well on the right track.

 

[fokof]

With all due respect, I'll reason that most don't ask because they don't care to hear the soundguy's opinion.

Very good point .....