A soundman's rant to younger players.

[jnuts1]

"So not to hijack the tread, but am I the only one who is annoyed by someone making decisions about the sound of the band that are contrary to what the band (or musician's) want?"

no you are not. i don't know how many soundboard recording where i sound like pure mud. i play an MTD & it is BRIGHT so there is no reason to sound like mud but it happens constantly. if i get told by another soundguy that i should "only play ampeg" or that they want me to "use only the neck pickup" i might freak out. both quotes are from this month.

 

[Queg]

I figure I've pretty much solved this problem. I go with a rack setup, into a fEarful. Neutrally voiced cab, so I have a much better idea of that I'll sound like through my DI. My DI is integrated into my tube preamp, which I leave almost completely flat. The DI is post, but I don't EQ much, I'm just getting nice and juicy tube tone and the tiniest bit of overdrive. IME this works out really well for everyone involved.

+1
Glad I'm not crazy for thinking down this same path...

 

[Evil Undead]

Forgive me if I'm out of line, but times have changed in the 20 years that you have been a soundman, and the tones that us "kids" like on our basses aren't the same sounds as they were then. We don't all play jazz/synth pop or whatever is your preferred genre

You may like to think that I'm just a noob or whatever - but I play bass for me, nobody else, and the tone that I select at that particular time just happens to be what sounds good to me at that time! Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't play blues with a cold harsh tone for example, or nu-metal with a warm tone... but hopefully you get what I mean

 

[Queg]

Forgive me if I'm out of line, but times have changed in the 20 years that you have been a soundman, and the tones that us "kids" like on our basses aren't the same sounds as they were then. We don't all play jazz/synth pop or whatever is your preferred genre

You may like to think that I'm just a noob or whatever - but I play bass for me, nobody else, and the tone that I select at that particular time just happens to be what sounds good to me at that time! Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't play blues with a cold harsh tone for example, or nu-metal with a warm tone... but hopefully you get what I mean

Fair enough, but I guarantee you that what sounds so good to you coming out of your 1x15" cab is not the same sound as the signal from your DI that the sound engineer is stuck with struggling to eq to the best of his room and equipment limitations.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

Great thread...

In the '80s, I used to get so frustrated with sound guys because EVERYTHING was scooped to hell - - That was the "thing" at the time, so I learned to chat with the sound guy before the gig, get a feel for what he had in mind, and let him know what I was hoping for. It NEVER pays to be rude or demanding to the sound guy - he can make or break you... But I found that just chatting him up a bit, letting him know what we were going for, what sound I wanted out of MY bass rig, helped a great deal. Most of these guys want to do a good job, to make everyone happy... Even the guys who are amateurs are trying hard...so some input is good, or they just go on their gut - - and back in the '80s, the "gut" was to scoop the mids (which did NOT work well for the band I was in at the time)

 

[Archaeobass]

There is a flip-side to this whole issue: soundmen who can only make a p-bass fit in their mix (and condescend to bassists who use anything else). Or soundmen who don't understand that those stomp boxes at my feet aren't just for show, or for my personal enjoyment, but fill vital sonic roles in my band's total sound, and yes I deserve as much attention as any guitar player gets during sound check to ensure that my levels are good and everything is audible to the audience. Or soundmen who won't give me the benefit of the doubt that I know what I'm doing and at least make a modest attempt to work with me to convey my sound to the audience before going into their rote "this is how bass should sound" routine at the console.

Harry is right, talking to some soundmen briefly about what you're trying to achieve can go a long way towards making everyone happy. But lets not kid ourselves: talking to other soundmen about getting your five string to sit right in the mix is like inviting torture.

 

[bucephylus]

This is a great discussion. But, it is also an infinitely variable situation with no single answer.

Reason I say that is the the final mix will always be captive to the subjective target of the mixing engineer. In other words, the target mix always depends on your reference. This is particularly a factor for the bass.

For example, if your reference is what the tune sounds like on the car radio, then you will mix with a different target in mind than if your reference is what the tune sounded like through JBL studio monitors, or the club juke box etc. In others words, there is no objective target. The bass level in the mix is particularly variable in this disparity of targets. Motown on the car radio almost has no bass at all; which is why I didn't hear Jamerson when the music was on the radio. And believe me, there are plenty of soundmen who form their opinions of mix while driving around in their cars these days; so, this is not such an outrageous statement.

Bass players should certainly be aware of the overall mix and fit their sound into the overall sound with appropriate texture and dynamics. However, bass players and sound people do not always share the same concept for what this final product should be.

The best we can do, as bass players, is to strive to be aware of the overall sound and communicate as clearly as possible with the sound people. For the sound people, they need to be open to communicating as clearly as possible with the musicians.

It is certainly true that many musicians play without hearing where the voice fits in the overall mix; and this is a common thing with younger players. In that case, building a more over-arching awareness is a good thing to work on. But, eventually, that is not the issue. More common in my experience are simple disagreements about where the various instruments should be in the mix. And, I do not believe there is any fundamental answer that is right. It is kind of like religion, with faith a bigger factor than solid data. Some people think guitar wash should drive the sound. Others hear the bass and snare driving the sound. Others think the kick drum drives the sound.

I personally would put the relative mix levels in order of decreasing presence at Vox, Snare, Bass, chordal instruments, drum kit; and lead parts taking vox level during solos. But, I also know the sound guy in our group does not share this opinion and has more of a car radio mix concept. I have given up trying to reconcile these differences, and have decided that being gracious and having fun outweighs trying to be "right."

IMO/IME

 

[Febs]

no you are not. i don't know how many soundboard recording where i sound like pure mud.

Do you really think that what you hear in a soundboard mix is the same as what the audience hears through the mains?

 

[jnuts1]

if i sound like mud in the soundboard mix i am not sure how it could sound that much better FOH.

 

[Tim C.]

As echoed in throughout the thread, every instrument in a band or group should be EQ'd or whatever else to fit into the band's music as the larger picture.

But every group has its own dynamics and needs. Stefan Lessard's clean, thumpy tone works marvels alongside the clean guitar and violin parts in his band's music. Entwistle's twangy and overdriven tone was the ideal complement to Townshend's twangy and overdriven tone, not to mention Moon's style and sound.

It's about the music as a whole, an idea that is unfortunately often lost on younger folks. And it's not just bass players. I hear the "wrong" drum kit sound all the time with younger bands. And guitars? Forget about it.

 

[groooooove]

i trust soundguys.

theyre hearing more what the audience is hearing than i do onstange. and yeah, ive spend thousands on my gear to get what i think is a great sound, but the soundmands oppinion is just as valid- and he knows the room better if he's the in-house guy. the signal comming from my basses is really why i feel i can trust soundguys- to be egotistical about my tone for a second, my basses kill.

and if the sound guy isint qualified for me to trust him this way, so then i dont trust him, and he still wont know how to make anything sound good.

ive come to just sit back and accept that the soundguy is going to do his job, weather he's good or not. i wouldent bother/dare tell him "bump me up at 125 hz, would ya?"

 

[fokof]

Forgive me if I'm out of line, but times have changed in the 20 years that you have been a soundman,

Nooooo , are you serious ??????
Glad you told me so , I couldn't tell.

You may like to think that I'm just a noob or whatever - but I play bass for me, nobody else, and the tone that I select at that particular time just happens to be what sounds good to me at that time! Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't play blues with a cold harsh tone for example, or nu-metal with a warm tone... but hopefully you get what I mean

( I am dead serious here) I really think you sound very good in your bedroom.

 

[NateS]

Nooooo , are you serious ??????
Glad you told me so , I couldn't tell.



( I am dead serious here) I really think you sound very good in your bedroom.

sound is sound, whether it's a bedroom or a concert hall. if your subs and 15s and 10s and 12s and tweeters and kilowatt amps can't do something that a 1x10 combo can, then you need to downgrade a little, eh?

 

[robgo]

Basically there's only 2 types of soundmen. Those that ask you how you want to sound, and those that don't know what they're doing.

Most IME can't really be bothered. They have one generic sound in their head and mix to achieve this. It's not like there is only one 'good' bass sound as some people on here have started to imply, there's prominent or low in the mix, mid heavy, scooped etc etc depending on what works for you, your band and your audience. If the soundman is not interested in this basic info, he cannot do his job.

 

[fokof]

As echoed in throughout the thread, every instrument in a band or group should be EQ'd or whatever else to fit into the band's music as the larger picture.
.....
It's about the music as a whole, an idea that is unfortunately often lost on younger folks. And it's not just bass players. I hear the "wrong" drum kit sound all the time with younger bands. And guitars? Forget about it.

That's the main point I'm trying to make , in beter words , thanx!

The best musicians , the ones that stand out from the crowd understand this very well. IME

 

[fokof]

sound is sound, whether it's a bedroom or a concert hall.

Can I use this as a quote in the Humour section ?

 

[NateS]

Can I use this as a quote in the Humour section ?

well, i guess i've never played a place special like yours, where the laws of sound propagation are different then than other places, and i haven t' used your speakers, which obviously bend the laws of physics. How much was the pixie dust?

Point is, you're coming off as kind of douche, to me. You did sound for a festival where you weren't interested in how 45 of the 50 basses wanted to sound.

how can you possibly assume that a band, or a bassist, has no idea what they want to sound like, or how they want to sound. My band has only played outside of the garage 4 times, ever, but i swear we've spend whole days tweaking our sound. And if we do it, then surely a band of people who actually play for other people would have, as well. Just because the sound THAT band wants isn't the sound in YOUR head, doesn't make you right. They're the ones playing music, you're pushing sliders.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

well, i guess i've never played a place special like yours, where the laws of sound propagation are different then than other places, and i haven t' used your speakers, which obviously bend the laws of physics. How much was the pixie dust?

Point is, you're coming off as kind of douche, to me. You did sound for a festival where you weren't interested in how 45 of the 50 basses wanted to sound.

how can you possibly assume that a band, or a bassist, has no idea what they want to sound like, or how they want to sound. My band has only played outside of the garage 4 times, ever, but i swear we've spend whole days tweaking our sound. And if we do it, then surely a band of people who actually play for other people would have, as well. Just because the sound THAT band wants isn't the sound in YOUR head, doesn't make you right. They're the ones playing music, you're pushing sliders.

Great attitude from a guy who has done 4 gigs.

Look, the soundguy is *critical* to how you sound to the folks listening - if you don't care about anyone but yourself, stay in the garage; If you DO want to sound good in a large live venue, then you better get your head around the idea that the sound guy can be your best freakin' friend or your worst enemy.

 

[Medford Bassman]

In the past 6 months, I've taken over sound duties for the band. I set the FOH from on stage. Then I spend a good time out in the crowd during the show with a wireless system to adjust the sound.

One thing I have learned the hard way. My bass on stage is way different than what is coming out FOH with subs.

Lately, I have switched my GB Shuttle to pre-eq DI and then adjust the tone at the board. Cleaner, deeper and cuts more through than my bass cab.

 

[Phalex]

the sound guy can be your best freakin' friend or your worst enemy.

Just kinda thought, I'd highlight that part before I said......


+1