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Accessible Jazz vs "Real" Jazz

#101
TyBo said:
I think one can make just about anything groove, it's just a matter of how it's approached. "How High the Moon" was a popular song without a strongly pronounced groove to it, but it certainly lends itself to being played with a groove ... and of course, Parker's "Groovin' High" rides on those changes.

I wasn't aware that Monk was the most recorded American composer, though I certainly think of him as widely recorded - do you have a source for that? I know Gershwin had a ton of very frequently performed songs, and "Summertime" in particular was massively recorded. I might've guessed him, though it's not something I've really looked at.
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I can't remember the source, but it was probably "Eric in the evening" the longtime jazz DJ on WGBH Boston who taught me Monk was the most recorded American composer. I read so much expository writings on jazz it could have been anyone. So I do not have a foot notable source to site on that, my mind is only half a steel trap.
Some standards were born to swing eh? "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing".
I still greatly prefer Purpose Built Jazz compositions, like the Herbie Hancock album Maiden Voyage. Maybe that will be my shower music today???
 
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#103
Acoop said:
Jazz is conversation. ... Some conversations are easier than others.

Miles said to Coltrane, "Why do you play so many notes."
Coltrane replied, "I just don't know when to stop."
Miles said, "Take the horn out of you mouth."
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LoL. Miles was also a world renowned curmudgeon and nightmare of a bandleader.
It's no coincidence Miles sidemen left and started their own bands. Purportedly a nightmare to work for.
The "best" creators of music are often the most fascist about it. Miles. Zappa. James Brown. Becker and Fagen.
 
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#104
socialleper said:
I'm not super into jazz, but I can spin some more accessible jazz, or jazz-related music occasionally. As a bass player it seems almost like an obligation. Things like early Miles Davis and John Coltrane are ubiquitous. I like a lot of Christian McBride's work. Then I veer more into RB\Funk territory with Marcus Miller, Stanley Clarke, and Jaco. Then there is whatever you want to consider Snarky Puppy, BadBadNotGood, and Yussef Dayes work.
However, when I try to listen to Davis' and Coltrane's later works, Monk, or William Parker, or Jaco's later Punk\Jazz work, I just don't "get it." In many ways the parts being played aren't necessarily complicated on their own, but the arrangement is such that it feels like a cacophony. There is probably some genius behind making that work, and the idea of being able to write and perform such a thing reliably is fascinating. But I don't really know what to listen to. There isn't a melody, harmony is questionable, and the rhythm drifts all over the place.
In the metal world I come from the sort of jazz\funk recording I listen to would be considered "surface" or "starter pack". The others would be considered "Trv" (true) recordings. Metal is also full of pretentious t***ts, something it has in common with jazz.

What is your personal experience with surface level, accessible jazz, and deeper "real" jazz?
If are into the harder stuff, can you help me understand how to appreciate these works?
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The jazz of which you speak came some time after the more tuneful kind.
 
#106
pbassnut said:
I like Jazz quite a bit but can only go so far when it comes to "outside" Jazz. I have an avant garde offering by Eric Dolphy called "Out to Lunch" that I've seen listed on several top ten Jazz albums. I pull it out about once a year to see if my ear has become "educated" enough to dig it. It's still not happening for me as I don't like to have to work too hard to dig on something. I like the mid fifties to late sixties "Hard Bop" the best ... particularly many of the releases from the Blue Note catalog.
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"Out to lunch" is a great album :)
 
#109
Played a piano trio jazz gig last night. Club was sold out and they payed us $100 each plus we got another $85 each in tips. IMO if you play with soul and give off a positive vibe, the audience will embrace you and your music. For those who put down Sun Ra, he sold out a lot of concerts and sold a lot of records, as did Coltrane at ALL stages of his career. Ornette as well!

set list from last night:

Set One
Green Dolphin Street
The Days of Wine and Roses
I Mean You
She’s Leaving Home - like McCoy
Don’t Get Around Much Anymore
Crawdaddy - Larry Goulding
Song For My Father
St Thomas

Set Two
Come Rain or Come Shine
Work Song
Memories of Tomorrow - Keith Jarrett
Take The A Train
Valdez In The Country
Just The 2 Of Us
Blues
 
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#110
jvanoort said:
Wow! Glad you’re not the judgmental type… :D

Nothing personal, but as for “I would defy them to repeat what they just played”: this line alone tells me more about how to value your opinion on jazz than anything else…
You can argue about taste, but it doesn’t help if you don’t really know much about the subject in the first place.

But it’s all good, there’s tons of music to like or dislike or, at least, appreciate and perhaps learn from.
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If you can’t repeat a passage, then you’re just trolling your listening audience. Period.
 
#112
JAZZ: “It’s not you; it’s me.”
ME: (Oh, I think it’s me.)

As other posters say, just listen. And regularly make brief forays into styles of music and musicians you don’t ordinarily vibe with. Just like stretching a little more each day makes one more flexible.

Just put some different-to-you channel on Pandora or SoundCloud in random and put it on in the background while you do chores or set up your instruments. Things that once did not attract you might catch your ear. Also helpful to pick a musician that seems out there to you like Ornette Coleman or Joe Lovano and listen chronologically to see how they got there. And you don’t have to “like” it to get something out of the experience. Also I find if I put something away for a bit and come back to it later I’m more open. Also catching an artist live can change the experience for you.
 
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#116
g-dude said:
Repetition legitimizes.
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repetition of what? There is a lot to be said for motive development in solos - Creating a phrase, and repeating it with variations, is a very good way to approach soloing. I do it quite a bit - sometimes I will start a solo, then (by luck, usually) play a phrase off the top of my head I like. then re- use it to fit the chord progression. I happen to be huge Clifford Brown fan, and he was a genius at this sort of thing... Even a melody for a song he wrote "Joy Spring" is essentially a motif repeated..

What got me into CB, was patterns :-).. A lot of his solos and melodies are patterns, that, on bass, are easy to move up and down the fretboard. So you sound really good..
 
#117
One of my jazz bands played a gig a couple weeks ago. We filled our venue, and on top of our guarantee, made a nice pile of tips. This band plays about 50-50 original jazz compositions, and unique arrangements of contemporary jazz tunes, plus one or two standards. Roughly half of the tunes have bass solos, on both upright and electric bass.

Another of my bands plays complex "concert" big-band arrangements. We consistently fill our venue. There's nothing wrong with specializing in a niche that happens to have a few passionate followers, both in the band and the audience.

Remember that up through the 1950s, jazz filled popular nightclubs and dance floors. The scene was extremely competitive. If your music didn't excite an audience, you got replaced the next night.

I'm both a jazz listener and player. And I like the "weird" jazz. But what I've noticed is that the "weird" kind of jazz gets discussed a lot more than it actually gets played. Especially live.

We can't erase the recorded history, but it seems like most of the "weird" jazz that folks talk about is getting on 40 - 60 years old. And it was controversial even among musicians. It's hard to figure out what "mainstream" jazz even consists of today, because popularity has declined and there are no longer major record labels acting as tastemakers. I think the best way to find out is to attend live performances. You get to hear someone's idea of what they think an audience would like to hear. Most bands are aware that they are competing for their next gig, against mild skepticism about whether or not jazz can attract an audience.

Now there are some things that I've noticed. Some performances are better than others. Not all bands or players are on the same level. From a younger player, the blizzard of notes could be an expression of taste, or a way to cover their nervousness. Both of those things can and will change over time. The best ones are either rehearsed, or with players who can be really tight with one another. One of my bands, a piano trio, plays with no charts, and never rehearses, but we're going on 20 years together. My other two bands rehearse.
 
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