Achieving valve tone with solid state plus..?

[monsterthompson]

I input a valve [Nightowl Edison] pedal to give my class D amp some tube attributes.
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I was going to suggest a Nightowl Edison. It adds some nice character, despite having no controls other than on/off and level. I find it adds life to my Zoia (digital) sounds. There's a bit of a tonal shift toward the mids, but it is subtle, and more like compression than EQ. I've noticed it can roll off some deep lows (on both bass and synth, but more synth), but not in any way that couldn't be adjusted for with EQ, and it is in a frequency range you might HPF out anyway (depending on the rest of the signal chain, including speaker/cab parameters).

I don't love it on everything, but I do like it. They can be a little tough to come by, but certainly worth considering. The OP being in the UK could be a complication.

 

[arbiterusa]

. Turn off the speaker sim module since you already have speaker voicing from your amp's cabinet.

This is super important. I found this out with my first modeler, hell, it said to do it in the manual and I totally ignored it and was just getting nothing but garbage tone using it live. Few months later of bad and sad tone at rehearsal and I reread the manual and turned off the speaker emulation...skies opened, sun shone down, the works. Now, I no longer use a modeler - don’t need one more thing to haul around - but that rig was a great rig and if you were live, speaker emulation off, recording, emulation on. That easy.

You sure don’t need tubes. This is the 21st century, for God’s sake.

 

[FunkHead]

I've just had a lot of feedback and it's hard for me, without the experience of a variety of different setups, to sift through what makes sense. I didn't say I was lacking power, someone(s) else did. I have tube preamp and would rather not have to use it as I would much rather just run one pedal, but I could probably stretch to two!

I have check out how I'm running

Amp sims and all that are great in studio situations but your 1st post seem to be about not having enough oomph when live with your band.
Your Peavey has more than enough to kick ass and sound great with your band.
Stick a second cab on top or underneath your 210 and stick the Helix on your computer desk.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Absolutely agree. I think it's the cabs that make a real difference. A 2x10 just runs out of oomph at some point. At least a 4x10, or a 4x10 + 1x15 would be great!

I run two 2-10 cabs (see avatar) that between the two can handle about 700 watts, but at most I send about 300 watts a cab when playing outside with no band shell. Inside, much less. The 2 cabs are easier to transport than a 410 weighing in at about 100lbs.

 

[BaltBass5]

There is no way to sound like a tube amp without tubes. The helix is a cool product, but it doesn't really sound like anything. My guitarist used one for years. It's stale, bland, and generic. Sure, you can do some cool stuff with modelers. But, it sounds like a modeler. Like, if you were using VSTs in your DAW.

He just upgraded to the Fractal. Again, it sounds good. But, it's stale, generic, and generally fake sounding all the way around. It gets some life in it by running it through his powertwin.

STRONGLY disagree. There are plenty of pro level world class musicians whom are tone freaks that are using strictly Helix modeling to achieve their sound (Garbage, Def Leppard to name 2. Pearl Jam did an entire album using Helix, and Smashing Pumpkins use them religiously)

 

[BaltBass5]

That's fair. I'd been thinking of explaining the tone in the OP. My favourite bassists are Tim Commerford and Geddy Lee. Their tones make me cream my pants, and I think there are some strong similarities. So I aim to have my clean tone a lot like Geddy's, and dirty a lot like Tim's. I can achieve most of that quite easily, and then up the drive when I want to get that really dirty RATM tone.

I think the adjustments I'm making to my tone at the moment are bringing them to a clearer position in the band's arrangement. To be fair, the amp he has is lovely. I don't know what it is, but it sound great. Some sort of tube Fender I think, extremely beefy. I always play with heavy mids so I think that's cutting through. On Monday we had our first practice since COVID and I think I was really cutting through his stuff then. So I'm not far off. I think he's being somewhat snobbish, but he's also reminding me of what I was trying to achieve previously.

I could probably look at bigger cabs, and as others have said, that may well be worth trying out. I just don't really want anything bigger as the 210 is a lump to carry around already! Any suggestions on that front?

Years ago when I was looking for my dream sound I made a list of bassists whose tone I was trying to achieve. Amongst the list were Tim Commerford, Nate Mendel, Jeff Ament and Geezer Butler. It also happens that they were using Ashdown heads. I ended up with the Ashdown ABM500 (which has a tube pre) and I’ve never been able to find anything that can replicate that goodness. The only other head I own that comes close is the Orange Terrorbass 500.

I run my Ashdown into (2) Orange OBC112’s. They weigh in at only 26 lbs each and with 2 combining for a 4 ohm load I’ve never needed anything more to absolutely crush!

 

[DwaynieAD]

I want to sound like bassist x but don't want to put in the money or effort. Tb's obsession with getting a out of be strikes again.

You need more speakers first and foremost. If a second 210 is impractical I just don't know what to tell you.

210s is never gonna sound like 810s no matter how many fancy flashing lights you throw at it.

 

[arbiterusa]

STRONGLY disagree. There are plenty of pro level world class musicians whom are tone freaks that are using strictly Helix modeling to achieve their sound (Garbage, Def Leppard to name 2. Pearl Jam did an entire album using Helix, and Smashing Pumpkins use them religiously)

Both Geddy and Alex ran Helix on the last Rush tour. Alex has been using it a long, long time.

 

[FunkHead]

Both Geddy and Alex ran Helix on the last Rush tour. Alex has been using it a long, long time.

yep, along with 10’s of thousand dollars worth of gear and roadies to carry it all.
Not that it can’t be done with a Peavey & Rumble 210 but I’m sure you see the difference.

 

[agedhorse]

Identify the actual cause of the problem before assuming that you need an additional solution.

 

[Wasnex]

I imagine this question has been answered before, but I wanted to ask some specific questions so apologies in advance for any re-hashing.

I run a Peavey Headliner 1000W head with a Fender Rumble 210. I then use a Helix in a send and return loop to largely bypass the tonal controls of the amplifier and get things like an Ampeg SVT tone from the Helix. This sounds great at home, but I had some feedback from my guitar shop worker guitarist about the tone. He thinks it would have a lot more strength if I was actually using a valve amp.

So I think that's in part snobbishness - I'm not sure that he could tell a valve amp from a solid state amp using a Helix, but I could be wrong. He also knows that I'm interested in this sort of stuff hence the conversation with him. I can't afford a valve amp and I don't want to lug one around either, so I'll be keeping the Helix and the Peavey. I also love the versatility it gives me.

Having said all that, I built a valve pre-amp pedal which he hasn't heard much of. I think I could put that before or after my Helix (probably after???) to give it some genuine valve grit. Just wondering what you guys think of that? Would that be a reasonable compromise and would the resulting sound actually add that grit? I'm not sure what effect putting all that through my power amp would actually have.

Obviously the guitarist doesn't control my tone, but he did set me thinking - getting a valve tone has always been a goal of mine, but I've just not had the funds. I also need to rebuild the pre-amp because it constantly overheats, so I'll take the opportunity to improve the whole thing when I do.

Thanks in advance!

dirtychinchilla

The vast majority of guitarist prefer all tube and I concur. Whether it's possible to make a good solid state guitar amp or not, there are not many available in the market. Modeling is a different matter IMHO. In the right hand a good modeling rig can sound really good. In wrong hands, they tend to sound pretty meh.

In the bass world, I think its fairly polarized. Some prefer more of a clean transparent sound, and some prefer more of a baked in tone and/or tubey qualities. I own a bunch of tube amps, but if I am honest with myself I really prefer a very transparent amp with massive headroom over the qualities most people think of as tubey.

As far as your dilemma, it's only an issue if you allow it to be an issue. I.E. it's really none of the guitarist business, unless he/she is your boss in some capacity.

You say your goal is to have more of a valve tone. Can you describe this objectively? I'll give you a hint, it's not one specific quality; rather it's a range of qualities that can be combined in different amounts to create different "flavors" of tubey deliciousness.

You might like some tubey flavors and hate others. Compare an Ampeg SVT to a Hiwatt for example, and I think you will agree they are drastically different on a range of factors that can be identified and discussed objectively. Furthermore, it's pretty much impossible to make an SVT sound like a Hiwatt, or make a Hiwatt sound like an SVT, and yet both are tubey delicious.

My philosophy is play a bunch of amps and buy the one(s) I like. Who cares whether they have tubes or not. Ultimately it only matters if they sound good. For the record my collection includes, 5 solid state amps, 3 hybrids, and 21 amps that would be considered all-tube. The collection is a mix of bass and guitar amps.

 

[DrMole]

QUOTE="agedhorse, post: 25191954, member: 68399"]Identify the actual cause of the problem before assuming that you need an additional solution.[/QUOTE]

That there is crazy engineerin talk.

 

[scuzzy]

The best guitarist I know, with the best sound, that has owned the best gear most can afford, switched to a helix over a year ago. I asked him last month of he regretted it, and it says no. It's the best piece of gear he has ever bought. He greatly prefers it to any tube amp he has ever owned.

Through ears, foh, or really really really good monitors, they will keep up with anything.

 

[el murdoque]

There's several aspects to tube sound.
One is how a tube in the preamp breaks up when getting saturated/overdriven.
One is how the power tubes compress the signal when they approach their maximum output.
One is the sound of a well engineered and very well built amp.
Those SVT's that have been running for more than four decades are not exactly unicorn-rare. They are still around because it's quite hard to kill one for good.

This managed to create a religious hype around tube amps. Guitarists don't really have options. Run tubes or run home (to get a tube amp).
Bassists, however, play with a signal that has a lot more dynamic range. Unless you're doing a Lemmy Kilmister kind of sledgehammer assault on the ears of everyone in a quarter mile radius, you'll make use of that range more than you might think. An amp that's already driven hard will eat up a lot of that. That's why bassists look for headroom where guitarists don't.

Tube technology is ancient. Nowadays, no one likes to have a hum, a buzz or a whine on their signal when they don't play. To get tubes sound clean and not make unwanted noise, there is only one way and that way is quality.
You need quality components and quality workmanship.

Those tube components that are actually able to introduce some of the magic sparkle tube mojo into your system all have one thing in common: They are expensive. Check the Noble Preamp DI. Sets you back a thousand bucks and you have to wait like a year for it. The REDDI is just shy of a grand. A Mesa Bass Prodigy ... I don't want to look up how much they are now, I might shudder.
There is a ton of gear that is priced in a more obtainable bracket, but most of that stuff has a tube built in so something lights up and looks pretty.

The goal of 'Achieving valve tone' is only accomplished by using an all tube amplifier. There is no easy and no cheap way around.
The goal to coax a specific tone, one that is usually done with a tube amp, out of solid state gear is often easily reached. But it is highly specific.

I've been down that rabbit hole, chasing true tube tone. I tried the cheap way and found that this won't do - and moved on to the more and more expensive options, peaking in a handmade boutique amp that was one of the biggest disappointments I can remember regarding gear purchases.

In my humble opinion, you should either have a sound in your head that you try to get into the air, or you should just try out gear and see if you like it more than the gear you already have if you're not happy with what you get out of your speakers.

You should not stumble in the dark, chasing a vague idea by introducing tube driven circuit boards into your signal chain.

 

[Wasnex]

That's very interesting, thank you. My understanding of tone build-up is not brilliant, so I'll look into that.

I wish I could have an 8x10! But that's completely unrealistic. What I could try and do is see if the rehearsal studios we use happen to have any. That wouldn't help me for recording, but it would certainly make a difference in the rehearsal room.

The 810 is a huge part of the sound most people associate with an SVT. This cab is not even remotely close to be being flat or transparent. Millions of people love it, but it's not for me. First rig I ever bought was a brand new MTI era SVT and 810, so I am speaking from an informed place.

To my ears the sound of an 810 on stage is considerably different than the sound you get from a mic close on one of the 10s. The actual sound in a room is too dark for my taste, and a mic'ed cab sounds a lot more open and even.

If you ever seriously consider buying an 810, hopefully it will be after you have a chance to actually play through one. You might love it, or you might be like me and find it does not suit your needs.

 

[neddyrow]

I agree with the more speaker or change of cab/cab setup.

I run a Genz Benz shuttle 9 which has a tube preamp in it and a RevSound 48VT. Love the raised speakers and the ones on the ground. I get a full spectrum of sound.

I also used a super stack in front of my Acoustic Image class D head to get a valve sound which worked pretty well.

 

[Matt O]

If you want to move more air, you need more drivers.

 

[dkelley]

yep, along with 10’s of thousand dollars worth of gear and roadies to carry it all.
Not that it can’t be done with a Peavey & Rumble 210 but I’m sure you see the difference.

The helix is all one needs... no need for anything outside of it other than a way to hear it. I'm not saying that amps are obsolete etc; I'm saying that if you want to go modeling, then there's zero need for anything else. This has been true for years, but is particularly true with current modeling tech from the big 2 (or 2.5) modeling company's products.

My entire rig weighs 12.5 pounds (if I'm just going into the PA without my own monitors... other than earbud style). It's a stereo rig with 2 legendary bass amp heads, one is tube going through a fridge cab, the other is tube not overdriven going through a more wide range cab, blended together, with my choice of optional compressors, eq pedals, a tuner, octavers, synths, additional drives, modulation, bass wah, volume pedal, verbs, delays, etc. along the way, all picked up from the cabs using models of expensive mics that I'd use in real life in the studio. I designed the rig myself and can customize several deep settings of the tube stages (running them outside of proper settings, for example, to get a particular tone, without worrying about actually damaging anything... I don't do that, but I can if I want to).

It certainly helps to be a mix engineer though.... if I wasn't it would be far more trial and error using a modeler.

 

[dkelley]

I stuck a Urei LA2A in front of a Crown power amp and I thought it sounded nice.

Weird fact: Jimmy Page plugged his guitar directly into an older transformer-input-balanced 1176 compressor to record Black Dog's guitars. He skipped a cab completely.

Weird SOMETIMES works. Even for guitarists. And tubes? there are lots of ways to get great sound with some rich harmonics, and tubes are only one way.

No reason for my post - just a factoid of weird information for you from my recent research into the history of tracking and mixing several legendary albums.

 

[rafitoprtx]

You can use an Art Tube Mic preamp. It's cheap and it can help you to achieve the tube tone you want.