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Achieving valve tone with solid state plus..?

I've just had a lot of feedback and it's hard for me, without the experience of a variety of different setups, to sift through what makes sense.

As I sort of alluded to in one of my earlier posts, the expertise and natural abilities of the user are really critical factors to getting the most authentic sound with a modeler. One particular problem is how do you gain the necessary experience so you can really dial in the perfect sound. The experience of playing with a bunch of amps and serving as an audio tech doesn't hurt, but not everyone has opportunities to do those things.

Some of it is natural aptitude. Some people prefer more of a set-it-and-forget-it approach. They like amps with very simple tone controls that they rarely touch. They find more complicated amps to be frustrating and confusing, so the idea is to find an amp that sounds great right out of the box. This type of person is unlikely to be happy with a modeler.

Other people enjoy amps with more features and flexible, powerful tone controls. The tend to have more interest in, and an intuitive feel for how to get different sounds, and may be frustrated by amps with simple controls that don't do much. This type of person is more likely to enjoy working with a good modeler.

I am not really familiar with current modelers, but what I have seen in the past is you have to wade through a lot of pages to make changes. What's really nice about using an amp or pedals is all of the controls tend to be right at your fingers, instead of buried deep in some submenu.

It helps if you have some sort of objective idea of what all the parameters actually do, so you have to study and build a knowledge base of the different factors that make up our concepts of tone. The is why I asked if you can objectively describe what valve tone means. If you can't then you really have not identified any/ or many of the individual factors or qualities that give sound a tubey quality. IMHO this is the first place to start.
 
The helix is all one needs... no need for anything outside of it other than a way to hear it. I'm not saying that amps are obsolete etc; I'm saying that if you want to go modeling, then there's zero need for anything else. This has been true for years, but is particularly true with current modeling tech from the big 2 (or 2.5) modeling company's products.

My entire rig weighs 12.5 pounds (if I'm just going into the PA without my own monitors... other than earbud style). It's a stereo rig with 2 legendary bass amp heads, one is tube going through a fridge cab, the other is tube not overdriven going through a more wide range cab, blended together, with my choice of optional compressors, eq pedals, a tuner, octavers, synths, additional drives, modulation, bass wah, volume pedal, verbs, delays, etc. along the way, all picked up from the cabs using models of expensive mics that I'd use in real life in the studio. I designed the rig myself and can customize several deep settings of the tube stages (running them outside of proper settings, for example, to get a particular tone, without worrying about actually damaging anything... I don't do that, but I can if I want to).

It certainly helps to be a mix engineer though.... if I wasn't it would be far more trial and error using a modeler.
I can’t argue but OP is specifically discussing Amp/cab. We could always tell him to get IEMs too.
 
I can’t argue but OP is specifically discussing Amp/cab. We could always tell him to get IEMs too.

Totally. Yea.

For that purpose I picked up a couple 112 neo behringer powered PA monitors - They're not flat (huge peak up high and a spec scooped, and not the greatest low end extension at useful volume), but treble and bass controls let you compensate for tweeter peaks a bit, and cranked up pretty loud they actually work pretty well with the F-M curve and sound very convincing with my 4 string bass so far. I have NOT gigged with them yet or done loud rehearsals with real drums, due to covid, but for practicing loudly they do the job great and, honestly, sound at least as good as my real amps sound, due to the helix handling the levels.

I'm not saying these are great powered speakers, nor flat. They ARE great for the money though. Either way they are shockingly useful, and weigh like 25 pounds each and put out (despite their 1000W claims) roughly 300-ish watts, and having efficient speakers, they really do put out plenty of volume, even on bass guitar (so far, like I said, haven't done proper loud band rehearsals or gigs yet).

I likely will not use bass cabs any more, not in the traditional use at least, since I really love the versatility of cab modelling (using IRs) in helix.
 
STRONGLY disagree. There are plenty of pro level world class musicians whom are tone freaks that are using strictly Helix modeling to achieve their sound (Garbage, Def Leppard to name 2. Pearl Jam did an entire album using Helix, and Smashing Pumpkins use them religiously)
Disagree all you want. Tube amps are still on the market. If you could do it in an 8lb amp that fits in your gig bag, or a program on your smart phone, they wouldn't make them anymore.
 
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I haven't taken my tube amps out in many years. My Ampeg PF-800 gets pretty close to a tube sound, but I haven't taken that out in recent years, not since I picked up a Peavey Headliner amp.

The Peavey engineers did something very clever with that design---the circuit apparently rolls off the low end and the high end and adds compression as the volume goes up. In other words, it acts the way tube amps work. The sound and the playing feel equal any tube amp I've ever owned or played through, including the SVT I owned for a couple of years in the mid-1970s.
 
STRONGLY disagree. There are plenty of pro level world class musicians whom are tone freaks that are using strictly Helix modeling to achieve their sound (Garbage, Def Leppard to name 2. Pearl Jam did an entire album using Helix, and Smashing Pumpkins use them religiously)
These guys are running a helix thru a 100,000.00 sound system not a fender 210.
 
Disagree all you want. Tube amps are still on the market. If you could do it in an 8lb amp that fits in your gig bag, or a program on your smart phone, they wouldn't make them anymore.

Most, although of course not all, tube preferring musicians are not techie engineers who are just as comfortable with making flowcharts and using software-driven interfaces. That's a generalization, but it's certainly true of some people. So there's the facts behind some buying decisions, and it's perfectly reasonable too. That's why there's choice out there.

However, some folks would be pretty shocked to find out how many great tube-amps on great albums by huge name musicians.... were actually modelers re-amping the DI signal that the engineer cleverly recorded on a separate track from the original miked up tube amp the guitarist (or bassist) used.
 
Helix is the bomb for tube sounds. You don't need to use the Bass Amp models provided in the Helix although they are quite good (SVT, Boogie, B15, etc). You can use any of the guitar heads such as a Fender Bassman or Hiwatt or any of a 100 other choices and pair them with a bass cab. You can send your signal directly to the front of house and use your amp for a monitor. If you are not getting good sounds, it's not the Helix. If you are not a tweaker or not comfortable with programming, you can buy bass presets.
This video is a demo of a guy that knows how to program this thing... and he will show his methods. Sounds pretty killer to me.
 
These guys are running a helix thru a 100,000.00 sound system not a fender 210.

well I’m running a Helix through an Ashdown and 2 Orange 112’s and it sounds great. My guitarist is running a Helix thru a Bogner and an Orange 212 and it sounds great. To each his/her own but there’s a reason world class artists from A-Z are using Helix.
 
Disagree all you want. Tube amps are still on the market. If you could do it in an 8lb amp that fits in your gig bag, or a program on your smart phone, they wouldn't make them anymore.

That’s absolutely not true. Although tube amps are still incredible, the reason people are still using them is usually 3 reasons:
1. They have roadies
2. They think people actually hear a difference and want to spend a bunch of money to look like they know what they are doing.
3. They just hear and feel the difference and prefer that tone.
 
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That’s absolutely not true. Although tube amps are still incredible, the reason people are still using them is usually 2 reasons:
1. They have roadies
2. They think people actually hear a difference and want to spend a bunch of money to look like they know what they are doing.

Yeah nah.

I'm an older dude and I still happily lug around a zillion pound Super Bassman because I like the amp and it's worth the effort. I realise out of a few hundred punters maybe one or two might recognise the amp or enjoy the sounds it makes, but most folks at a gig don't know or care.

I have no doubt a lot of tube amp users have the same mindset as me.

I've seen and heard plenty of players using non-tube amps that IMO copped a better tone than me and my rig. Go figure.
 
I see this has become a hot topic! I think I've concluded two things, although my mind is easily changed.

1. I need to examine my sound more closely. I think I'm pretty close to where I want to be, and I reckon the Helix gets me 90% of the way. I may try and integrate my tube preamp into that because when I really push it, it sounds awesome.

2. I might need to move a bit more air. Next time we're in the rehearsal studio, I'll borrow another cab and see what we get. I noticed a huge difference in tone when I happened to crouch down in front of my cab on Monday, so perhaps the band just isn't getting the full blast from my cab.

(3. ignore the guitarist.)

Thanks everyone for your input.
 
That’s absolutely not true. Although tube amps are still incredible, the reason people are still using them is usually 2 reasons:
1. They have roadies
2. They think people actually hear a difference and want to spend a bunch of money to look like they know what they are doing.
Wow, I didn't know I had roadies! I must be famous!

There's huge differences in tone. And it's vastly diverse. Not just depending on tubes or not. Huge differences in tones, reactions, gain, drive, subtleties, feedback, attack, and harmonic structure, with the change of one pre amp tube, and/or power tube selection. And not just type or model, every single tube is different. But, that's cool man. Go right ahead and keep loving what you got. I love my solids too. But for different reasons.
 
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well I’m running a Helix through an Ashdown and 2 Orange 112’s and it sounds great. My guitarist is running a Helix thru a Bogner and an Orange 212 and it sounds great. To each his/her own but there’s a reason world class artists from A-Z are using Helix.
But we're not talking about sounding great. We're talking about sounding like an svt fridge
Damn this forum likes to move goalposts
 
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But we're not talking about sounding great. We're talking about sounding like an svt fridge
Damn this forum likes to move goalposts

SansAmp.
Digital modeling has come a long way, but for me it's just not there yet...;)
Actually we were talking about what the OP could do with the current rig of Helix, Peavey Headliner 1,000 and Rumble 2
x 10 cab. The Helix vs. SVT worthiness debate is sort of a spinoff of that, and seems kind of beside the point, given the OP’s stated situation.