Double Bass ADD / ADHD and keeping up with the score

[notabene]

Hopefully they let you! If worst comes to worst, you can take pictures of each page with your phone and read them off your computer or tablet when you're at home. I did that with a few pieces where they didn't have a spare copy of a part. It's definitely not ideal. But for me and my perfectionism... necessary.

Otherwise, at least listening to the pieces a lot would help if nothing else. It's impossible for me to read smoothly if I'm completely unfamiliar with the music. Hearing/playing it once a week (or however often you rehearse) is not enough!

Edit: I'll just add as a side note - it blows my mind how well everyone else in the band can read their parts. Scores we get for the first time, full of key changes and all, and most people get through it just fine (save a few technically difficult runs or weird rhythms). It wouldn't surprise me if I was one of the only people practicing at home in between rehearsals - even though I'm arguably playing some of the easiest parts for most pieces (lots of root-fifth action on those marches)

 

[notabene]

My error . I meant to ask if attention Deficit disorder is not a neurological concern, even if diagnosed by a psychiatrist?

 

[charliethomas]

My error . I meant to ask if attention Deficit disorder is not a neurological concern, even if diagnosed by a psychiatrist?

I'm not quite sure if I understand your question, but I think what you're asking is whether ADHD is a neurological concern. Well, it definitely is! And it's not just some abstract issue to be handled in therapy sessions only - it has practical implications in our day to day lives. How our brains process information plays a big role in everything we do, especially tasks that require intense focus, like reading music (and executing it on an instrument at the same time! Two different skills!)

I think it's important to note that not everyone with ADHD experiences it the same way. It can vary in severity and how it presents from person to person. (Back in the day, ADD used to be a separate diagnosis, but since the 90s, it's been grouped together with ADHD under one term) But there are techniques that tend to work for a lot of people facing similar challenges.

Just knowing that others are dealing with similar difficulties can make a huge difference in our mindset and motivation. It's easier to overcome self doubt and feelings of inadequacy when we realize that our struggles aren't unique to us and that finding success might require different approaches or adaptations beyond the standard advice.

Now, this isn't only specific to ADHD. Everyone faces obstacles, but folks with ADHD often find certain tasks way more challenging than neurotypical people do. That's a generalization, but I think a true one. It can be frustrating when others don't understand why we can't just breeze through things that seem simple to them with enough effort or practice.

That's where empathy and understanding come in. Instead of brushing off the struggles faced by people with ADHD as laziness or lack of ability, we can try to offer alternative techniques and perspectives that may just be the thing needed to help someone over a hurdle. That's why I was happy to see a thread like this pop up on TB, and I'm happy to share my experiences and struggles so that anyone else reading may walk away with a fresh, healthier mindset, instead of giving up.

 

[Paps]

I have never been diagnosed, but wouldn't rule myself out!
From what I have casually learnt, people with ADHD are also on the autistic spectrum.
My understanding is that it is more psychological that neurological.

What I mean by this, is the nervous system of someone with ADHD is intact with no evidence of malfunction.
All the brain cells, motor neurones etc are indistinguishable from a normal person and can function perfectly.
But psychiatrically, since a lot of these people respond well to drugs such as retalin, brain chemistry may be affected in some way. However, normal people can also show great progress in concentration and mental function on these drugs.

 

[charliethomas]

My understanding is that it is more psychological that neurological.

What I mean by this, is the nervous system of someone with ADHD is intact with no evidence of malfunction.
All the brain cells, motor neurones etc are indistinguishable from a normal person and can function perfectly.
But psychiatrically, since a lot of these people respond well to drugs such as retalin, brain chemistry may be affected in some way. However, normal people can also show great progress in concentration and mental function on these drugs.

That's not a distinction I was conscious of when writing that post! But now that you point it out, I see what you're saying. I don't have any real comment other than that I'm not super well versed in psychology or neurology. The point about ADHD becoming more manageable with stimulants is interesting because that would seem to point to a neurological thing somehow, but again I don't know enough to say.

 

[Alexis Duntov]

Okay, so I've joined up with a concert band, and this is the first time since I was a kid where I'm playing with a conductor.

As it turns out, apparently I have ADD - just found this out. This explains a lot...

...specifically, how easy it is for me to get lost in this situation. The other things in my life would take a whole book, but I digress.

When I'm playing bass guitar or upright in other situations, I don't seem to have this problem. I think it's because I can key off words and even when there aren't words, chord changes are pretty obvious - or I can get a cheeky glance at the guitarist and know what I should be playing.

For me, it seems like missing a single beat is enough to send me completely into lost-ville because I'm sight reading stuff I've never seen before - or in some cases never heard before.

It's sort of frustrating, because you can plop a chord chart in front of me, and between that and listening to what's going on, I can come up with something with ease. In fact, I often prefer to just come up with my own stuff rather than learning someone else's lines.

In contrast, this concert band is combining playing what someone else has written with having none of my usual crutches to lean upon.

The easy solution would be to bow out, but I don't want to do that - I'm stubborn and I'm treating this as an opportunity to develop.

I'd love to hear any advice from people who have ADD or ADHD who have managed to find success in these sorts of environments in spite of their issues.

I just want to add that you may or may not have a diagnosis of ADHD, but as @AGCurry mentioned, the way you describe your struggle with this musical situation compared to your normal ease with improvising over chord charts suggests that part of the problem is reading. I’m very familiar with being good at improvising over charts and comping based on what others are doing while also struggling massively with sight reading. That is to say, you don’t need ADHD to struggle with reading. That’s its own challenge that requires time and patience to surmount. My own take on my issues with reading music is that it’s some kind of wires crossing situation that occurs with hearing, counting, and reading that combine to trip me up. That’s why I spend time reading every day, hopefully something I’ve not read before or memorized. Years later it’s improved but still a long way to go. Hang in there.

 

[Alexis Duntov]

I just want to add that you may or may not have a diagnosis of ADHD, but as @AGCurry mentioned, the way you describe your struggle with this musical situation compared to your normal ease with improvising over chord charts suggests that part of the problem is reading. I’m very familiar with being good at improvising over charts and comping based on what others are doing while also struggling massively with sight reading. That is to say, you don’t need ADHD to struggle with reading. That’s its own challenge that requires time and patience to surmount. My own take on my issues with reading music is that it’s some kind of wires crossing situation that occurs with hearing, counting, and reading that combine to trip me up. That’s why I spend time reading every day, hopefully something I’ve not read before or memorized. Years later it’s improved but still a long way to go. Hang in there.

And in terms of hacks to learn the music, as other have said, find recordings where possible; scan, copy, and annotate the music as needed. I use Adobe Scan to scan the sheet music as multiple page PDFs. Then I import them into ForScore and mark them up as needed. I use a Bluetooth foot pedal to turn the pages without having to take my hands off the bass.

 

[g-dude]

I have never been diagnosed, but wouldn't rule myself out!
From what I have casually learnt, people with ADHD are also on the autistic spectrum.
My understanding is that it is more psychological that neurological.

What I mean by this, is the nervous system of someone with ADHD is intact with no evidence of malfunction.
All the brain cells, motor neurones etc are indistinguishable from a normal person and can function perfectly.
But psychiatrically, since a lot of these people respond well to drugs such as retalin, brain chemistry may be affected in some way. However, normal people can also show great progress in concentration and mental function on these drugs.

Neurologists deal with more than that scope - for example, people who have migraines, nerve issues, fibromyalgia, etc.

I was actually seeing a neurologist for pain issues before moving to non-interventional pain management — with both using the same sorts of meds to try to tackle the problem.

The brain is an interesting thing. I have some sensory processing issues where some stuff is off the charts in terms of how sensitive I am to it.

I think what a lot of people don’t appreciate is how different people process reality.

The whole “what color is the dress” or Yanni/Laurel thing seemed to surprise a lot of people, with some not seeing how it was even possible.

Meanwhile, I’m so used to the fact that certain tastes, smells, textures resonate so differently in me than they do others that stuff like synesthesia seems no more strange than someone having a different hair color.

 

[g-dude]

I just want to add that you may or may not have a diagnosis of ADHD, but as @AGCurry mentioned, the way you describe your struggle with this musical situation compared to your normal ease with improvising over chord charts suggests that part of the problem is reading. I’m very familiar with being good at improvising over charts and comping based on what others are doing while also struggling massively with sight reading. That is to say, you don’t need ADHD to struggle with reading. That’s its own challenge that requires time and patience to surmount. My own take on my issues with reading music is that it’s some kind of wires crossing situation that occurs with hearing, counting, and reading that combine to trip me up. That’s why I spend time reading every day, hopefully something I’ve not read before or memorized. Years later it’s improved but still a long way to go. Hang in there.

I do happen to have a diagnosis, although I would have never bothered to look into it until being told that my son had it - I was blind to it because he is a chip off the old block.

My ease with chord charts comes from pattern recognition. One of my son’s strengths in learning the drums is the fact that he is a chip off the old block.

Another aspect of my ease with chord charts is that I have lyrics as well. Give me a chord chart, a decent drummer, and someone singing, and even when I get distracted I can lock back in quickly enough that most people don’t notice.

As I mentioned before, it isn’t even a sight reading issue. If it was, I could just hang out until I find a note that I can come in on. Instead, my biggest issue is continually losing my place - there’s just so much going on, and ooh the clarinets sound cool and oh crud, where are we at?

 

[Alexis Duntov]

I do happen to have a diagnosis, although I would have never bothered to look into it until being told that my son had it - I was blind to it because he is a chip off the old block.

My ease with chord charts comes from pattern recognition. One of my son’s strengths in learning the drums is the fact that he is a chip off the old block.

Another aspect of my ease with chord charts is that I have lyrics as well. Give me a chord chart, a decent drummer, and someone singing, and even when I get distracted I can lock back in quickly enough that most people don’t notice.

As I mentioned before, it isn’t even a sight reading issue. If it was, I could just hang out until I find a note that I can come in on. Instead, my biggest issue is continually losing my place - there’s just so much going on, and ooh the clarinets sound cool and oh crud, where are we at?

I have the same issues. And incidentally, my 7 year old was just ‘diagnosed’ with ADHD, though more on HD side of the spectrum. Yeah it can be a humiliating experience to be that guy who can’t follow the chart.

 

[g-dude]

I have the same issues. And incidentally, my 7 year old was just ‘diagnosed’ with ADHD, though more on HD side of the spectrum. Yeah it can be a humiliating experience to be that guy who can’t follow the chart.

So the fun thing with getting an IEP set up for my son is that he does well in school.

Basically, it’s a surprise when he isn’t above the 90% percentile on a standardized test.

I explained to them that just because he is doing well doesn’t mean he isn’t academically impacted. It just means that his intelligence is high enough to offset things to an extent that he does well in school. What they needed to understand is that his potential is even higher, and once I explained it to them, they got it.

I think.

 

[Paps]

That's not a distinction I was conscious of when writing that post! But now that you point it out, I see what you're saying. I don't have any real comment other than that I'm not super well versed in psychology or neurology. The point about ADHD becoming more manageable with stimulants is interesting because that would seem to point to a neurological thing somehow, but again I don't know enough to say.

My understanding is drugs like retalin/adderral/nuvigil aren't exactly stimulants in the same way as say caffeine is.
Many students are/were taking retalin/adderal/nuvigil and it seriously boosted their performance, so it can help normal people as well. What it seems to do is help people focus and concentrate, possibly by impacting the interference from the other noise and scatter the mind produces. I'm not advocating using it outside of a recommendation by a doctor, but the fact that it can work helps demonstrate that there is no functional damage to the brain cells themselves.
The problem is randomized, chaotic thinking patterns which make it difficult to focus on normal everyday tasks thus affecting performance. I cant think of the name, but there is a film -Limitless, dramatizing the effects of such drugs.

 

[g-dude]

My understanding is drugs like retalin/adderral/nuvigil aren't exactly stimulants in the same way as say caffeine is.
Many students are/were taking retalin/adderal/nuvigil and it seriously boosted their performance, so it can help normal people as well. What it seems to do is help people focus and concentrate, possibly by impacting the interference from the other noise and scatter the mind produces. I'm not advocating using it outside of a recommendation by a doctor, but the fact that it can work helps demonstrate that there is no functional damage to the brain cells themselves.
The problem is randomized, chaotic thinking patterns which make it difficult to focus on normal everyday tasks thus affecting performance. I cant think of the name, but there is a film -Limitless, dramatizing the effects of such drugs.

Adderall is more like taking amphetamines
than it is drinking a Red Bull.

The way it works is by making dopamine, the reward chemical in your brain, stick around longer. Folks with ADHD generally don’t have enough of it floating around, and so the brain wants to move on because of a lack of reward, so to speak. When they take the right meds, dopamine hangs around longer, and they can keep the mental focus.

People that don’t have ADHD have no proven benefit. What does happen is that they are taking speed, which has been abused for decades by folks needing to get stuff done. Meanwhile, that dopamine hit makes them feel like things are going great - often causing them to overestimate their performance.

ADHD straddles the ground between neurological and psychological - it often goes hand in hand with other neurodevelopmental issues.

It’s really interesting— apparently fibromyalgia and ADHD, as well as ADHD and sensory processing disorder have a good sized probability of comorbidity.

 

[Jefenator]

I've long thought I might have ADHD. Haven't gotten around to getting a formal diagnosis, but it is definitely raging in my family.
When I can source a recording of the piece and familiarize myself with that, I find it makes a huge difference. It helps immeasurably with keeping my place. (Of course I come in the third time they state the melody; why would anyone come in anywhere else??)
Simply looking at dots on a sheet & cranking out notes has always been torture for me. But, having that broader context for my part really unlocks all kinds of focus & motivation.
Maybe it's a crutch or a workaround, but it gets me through the concerts! In turn I definitely notice the residual benefits on my sight reading. (For that inevitable future scenario where there isn't the option or time to memorize.)
Relying on ears & instinct & memory is not always a liability IMHO. Right now I'm dealing with a trumpet player who seems to be a little too married to his ink. After just one pass with the YouTube link I would never... EVER come in at the wrong spot & train wreck everything the way he has been, repeatedly. Apparently his chart doesn't reflect the pickup bar everyone else has. (Should have penciled that in at home - or 3 rehearsals ago. But that's another topic.)

 

[Alexis Duntov]

This is getting way too high brow for Talkbass. Can we please get back to which pickguard is best for metal?

 

[charliethomas]

Relying on ears & instinct & memory is not always a liability IMHO. Right now I'm dealing with a trumpet player who seems to be a little too married to his ink. After just one pass with the YouTube link I would never... EVER come in at the wrong spot & train wreck everything the way he has been, repeatedly. Apparently his chart doesn't reflect the pickup bar everyone else has. (Should have penciled that in at home - or 3 rehearsals ago. But that's another topic.)

We have a drum kit player in our group who can be a bit unreliable at times. We need the kit for some of the pop medleys we perform, and there are these moments where it's just the kit playing for a few measures. It's frustrating because half the time, like at our last concert, he forgets to play there or comes in late, or even starts playing the wrong feel altogether. It's like if he just took the time to listen to a recording, he could easily nail it.

Then again, last rehearsal he couldn't make it, and the entire band was thrown off big time. I respect him and his role more now, at least.

Also why do they make parts without pickup bars? I have two pieces with parts like that! No problem if you're familiar with the piece though, like you say.

 

[g-dude]

I've long thought I might have ADHD. Haven't gotten around to getting a formal diagnosis, but it is definitely raging in my family.
When I can source a recording of the piece and familiarize myself with that, I find it makes a huge difference. It helps immeasurably with keeping my place. (Of course I come in the third time they state the melody; why would anyone come in anywhere else??)
Simply looking at dots on a sheet & cranking out notes has always been torture for me. But, having that broader context for my part really unlocks all kinds of focus & motivation.
Maybe it's a crutch or a workaround, but it gets me through the concerts! In turn I definitely notice the residual benefits on my sight reading. (For that inevitable future scenario where there isn't the option or time to memorize.)
Relying on ears & instinct & memory is not always a liability IMHO. Right now I'm dealing with a trumpet player who seems to be a little too married to his ink. After just one pass with the YouTube link I would never... EVER come in at the wrong spot & train wreck everything the way he has been, repeatedly. Apparently his chart doesn't reflect the pickup bar everyone else has. (Should have penciled that in at home - or 3 rehearsals ago. But that's another topic.)

It's worth getting tested. Your primary care physician can actually give you a diagnosis as to what exactly you have going on.

 

[g-dude]

This is getting way too high brow for Talkbass. Can we please get back to which pickguard is best for metal?

Squirrel!

 

[Jefenator]

It's worth getting tested. Your primary care physician can actually give you a diagnosis as to what exactly you have going on.

Good call; maybe I'll go ahead & do it. (I've been too cheap in the past, but this year I've already hit my deductible.)
My brother got two evaluations. One said he had it, the other said he didn't. But it turns out, the one that said he didn't assumed he had been "cheating". Sounds like it's still a bit of an inexact science.

 

[g-dude]

Good call; maybe I'll go ahead & do it. (I've been too cheap in the past, but this year I've already hit my deductible.)
My brother got two evaluations. One said he had it, the other said he didn't. But it turns out, the one that said he didn't assumed he had been "cheating". Sounds like it's still a bit of an inexact science.

It is.

In my case, they had me fill out this stupidly long packet with multiple choice questions.

Mine came back with ADD, which seems strange given how much I fidget, tap my feet, etc.

The difficult thing with it is that as an adult, you start to develop masking behaviors. My inability to take notes on anything goes unnoticed by many because I have an excellent ability to recall certain types of information and BS my way through other things.