Double Bass ADD / ADHD and keeping up with the score

[Paps]

The best advice is referral from your GP to a specialist who can properly assess and make appropriate recommendations as regards treatment programs.
Ritalin is used for the reason that it can benefit the symptoms of ADHD.
Self diagnosis and unfocused random research can lead you in unhelpful directions, leave you vulnerable to quackery, misinformation and disproportionate scare mongering.
It's all on the internet, but let the experts with experience and perspective make the decisions.
The lives of some ADHD suffers have been greatly enhanced.
It's great that you have reached out with a desire to get over some of these hurdles.

 

[g-dude]

The best advice is referral from your GP to a specialist who can properly assess and make appropriate recommendations as regards treatment programs.
Ritalin is used for the reason that it can benefit the symptoms of ADHD.
Self diagnosis and unfocused random research can lead you in unhelpful directions, leave you vulnerable to quackery, misinformation and disproportionate scare mongering.
It's all on the internet, but let the experts with experience and perspective make the decisions.
The lives of some ADHD suffers have been greatly enhanced.
It's great that you have reached out with a desire to get over some of these hurdles.

Well, unfortunately, doctors are lousy when it comes to music. Unless they are musicians! That's why I'm looking for things that have actually worked for people here -- not looking for a "cure", but rather practical advice to get from point A to point B in a specific setting.

Frankly, the only place such advice can really come through is the intersection of the venn diagram of people dealing with the same problems and who also have made music in these types of settings.

My doc prescribed something, but it's not straight up for ADD, and I can't even start it yet because I'm dealing with titrating another med of a similar class -- when I asked about a referral to someone who could give me non-pharmaceutical assistance, I discovered it's a 9-12 month wait. Now I have to get around to trying some of the other places they suggested.

Wanna bet how easy it'll be for me to follow through there?

 

[notabene]

This topic has edged close to some observations I have been making about the music reading/playing relationships.
Earlier in life (@1960) as a young man, I was enamored with Bach partitas, inventions, and his other keyboard works. I am now ancient, so back then I listened to Wanda Landowska on harpsichord records. Bach's genius shown through, despite no dynamics nor attack variations. When decades later I heard Glenn Gould's several versions of the pieces, I was (and am) blown away with the musicality, emotional range, yada, yada. One of the reasons was not just the instrument differences (controlled attacks, in some way, controlled decays, tonal (pedals) differences, volume and tone in dynamics differences. As well, a much more "loose" sense of time, with pauses and accelerations, (un notated) and a feeling of a human, for lack of a better word... singing. It seems related to the different ways "jazz" and "orchestral" music is mentally processed by the players differently. Orchestrally,expressiveness in tuttis sucks unless everyone is in step, guided by notation and a conductor, but improvised music (to me) is best, the more expressive ALL the players are. This, to me, especially in bass parts, gives us liscense to sing like a bird, not play like a machine.
For me, and I can only speak for me, eyes closed, my bass lines are more melodic even when just reading chord symbols. So for me, the parts of the brain work best, when I am bird-brained, without a thought.

 

[g-dude]

This topic has edged close to some observations I have been making about the music reading/playing relationships.
Earlier in life (@1960) as a young man, I was enamored with Bach partitas, inventions, and his other keyboard works. I am now ancient, so back then I listened to Wanda Landowska on harpsichord records. Bach's genius shown through, despite no dynamics nor attack variations. When decades later I heard Glenn Gould's several versions of the pieces, I was (and am) blown away with the musicality, emotional range, yada, yada. One of the reasons was not just the instrument differences (controlled attacks, in some way, controlled decays, tonal (pedals) differences, volume and tone in dynamics differences. As well, a much more "loose" sense of time, with pauses and accelerations, (un notated) and a feeling of a human, for lack of a better word... singing. It seems related to the different ways "jazz" and "orchestral" music is mentally processed by the players differently. Orchestrally,expressiveness in tuttis sucks unless everyone is in step, guided by notation and a conductor, but improvised music (to me) is best, the more expressive ALL the players are. This, to me, especially in bass parts, gives us liscense to sing like a bird, not play like a machine.
For me, and I can only speak for me, eyes closed, my bass lines are more melodic even when just reading chord symbols. So for me, the parts of the brain work best, when I am bird-brained, without a thought.

Bach was considered an incredibly skilled improviser, coincidentally enough…

…which makes sense because the basso continuo of the time called for improvisation on the part of the bass ensemble.

 

[Happy Steve]

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Kenny Werner up to this point. It is worth checking out his Effortless Mastery interviews on Youtube.
No affiliation other than buying his book a while back.

 

[g-dude]

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Kenny Werner up to this point. It is worth checking out his Effortless Mastery interviews on Youtube.
No affiliation other than buying his book a while back.

I’ll check them out!

 

[ejnachtrab]

I am a 51 year old professional bassist who has recently been diagnosed (4 hour neuro psych evaluation) with ADHD. My sight reading has always been terrible. I’ve alternately worked on it intensely, or avoided it as much as possible. What I’ve found is that no matter how much I work on it, sometimes it just feels like I’m using the wrong part of my brain to do the job. It’s unnerving because it’s undependable. It’s not always bad, but sometimes it’s humiliating. I’ll look at simple things and just not know what it means.

My advice, which I believe was given earlier, is to be as prepared as possible. I don’t try to hide it anymore. If there’s any real reading on a gig I will let people know that I need the music in advance. More importantly I need to hear it (obviously). If what you need is a killer sight reader then get someone else.

When I was younger there was a big emphasis put on “flying by the seat of your pants” no prep, just figure it out. It took me way to long to realize that that just doesn’t work for me. The stress and anxiety alone is not worth it.

Be prepared, be on time… my 2 cents

 

[ejnachtrab]

Also, exercise has helped me. Even a brisk walk before a gig or rehearsal can help with focus and ADHD symptoms. I went though a period of 10 years where I was almost addicted to intense exercise. It was one of the most well adjusted periods of my life, in terms of ADHD symptoms. I didn’t realize at the time, but I was essentially self medicating. Unfortunately bike crashes and playing the upright bass don’t go together too well.

 

[g-dude]

So I got the music….and promptly forgot I had it, and didn’t start looking at it until today.

Rehearsal is tonight and my first concert is tomorrow.

 

[charliethomas]

Also, exercise has helped me. Even a brisk walk before a gig or rehearsal can help with focus and ADHD symptoms. ... I didn’t realize at the time, but I was essentially self medicating.

I wish I self medicated in such a healthy way I have other, less-desirable habits I learned later on were basically a form of self medicating.

 

[charliethomas]

So I got the music….and promptly forgot I had it, and didn’t start looking at it until today.

Rehearsal is tonight and my first concert is tomorrow.

Dang... Best of luck either way. Try to live in the moment and don't worry too much when you make mistakes.

I set my scores on the music stand in my office where I play bass, so they're always in my line of sight, taunting me. It at least helps me remember to run through them (with the music!) every couple days.

 

[g-dude]

Dang... Best of luck either way. Try to live in the moment and don't worry too much when you make mistakes.

I set my scores on the music stand in my office where I play bass, so they're always in my line of sight, taunting me. It at least helps me remember to run through them (with the music!) every couple days.

My problem is that we had to move some stuff and my bag with the music got hidden.

Out of sight, out of mind.

Some songs I had to just lay out. The high profile piece, however, I was mostly fine - laid out some sections just out of practical concerns (i.e. I knew it would sound not great because my arco skills wouldn’t do the part justice), but I hit the important parts and hit ‘em well.

 

[kineticdg]

Not a huge fan of people discounting ADHD as being a relevant factor here... Some things are just a whole lot harder when you have ADHD. Even doing the most basic everyday tasks can be like moving a mountain sometimes. Not saying it should be an excuse not to try, but sometimes it's helpful to hear perspectives from other people who struggle with similar things rather than be dismissed and told it's not actually a problem.

My entire musical experience growing up was shaped by ADHD, even though I didn't know it at the time. I was always extremely hard on myself because I just couldn't follow standard advice for how to practice. Motivation follows personal interest, which would change with the weather. Not to mention how much my mind would wander when I was on stage playing a solo piano piece. I aced theory and aural skills, but when it came to refining a piece of music over multiple months, I found it really difficult to stay motivated. Inability to focus ended up being the thing that made me change my major away from music in college, even though again I didn't realize it at the time - I figured I just wasn't cut out for music. (I must not care enough if I can't even focus, right?)

I didn't play music for years after dropping out of music school. Thankfully I improved my relationship with music over time, and I've gotten past a lot of the shame and self doubt that came from just not being able to practice music the same way as my peers. Had to develop my own techniques to practice effectively - "buckle down and woodshed" never worked for me.

Something I find great about having ADHD (that's relevant to this thread) is that sight reading can actually be a blast and a motivator to play my instruments. Constantly playing new things tickles my brain in a way that practicing the same few pieces for months never did. There's plenty of material out there to sight read, and it lets me play every day without getting "bored", while increasing my chops along the way.

Not sure if the dismissal of ADHD being relevant here is because of the proliferation of kids self diagnosing on TikTok lately. It's an unfortunate phenomenon, because while it increases awareness (I think a lot of people have it and don't realize if they didn't get diagnosed as a child), it gets to a point where it becomes "trendy" to say you have ADHD or etc., and then people who actually have it bad face backlash for discussing real struggles.

Or maybe some posters are old enough to be from the times where standard advice for neurodivergence was "suck it up buttercup"

1. Just pay attention better
2. Take it more seriously
3. Try harder
4. ADHD isn't your problem
5. You have to work harder, you're not performing to your potential (I always loved that one- dude you have no idea...)
6. Everybody has some ADHD
7. Put away distractions (um, put away the world?)

We've heard it all, haven't we ;-)

As a true, diagnosed ADDer (I don't have much hyperactivity luckily) I've found two things that mostly help in situations like this:

1. Ritalin (prescription after a diagnosis)
2. Accepting that I have skills and limitations that are built into my brain, so give myself some grace

That, and a thousand little tricks and systems to make micro improvements in life situations. One cool one: if I play scales on my bass during remote, all-hands type Zoom meetings, I can actually follow along (and not start browsing some random crap on the web, which is what happens otherwise).

My high school orchestra experience of playing Vivaldi on trombone was to *really* focus and count out those hundred plus measures before I came in, then confidently play my part- always a couple of measures too early or too late. Then have the conductor stop everything and start yelling "trombones, you're off again!"

 

[kineticdg]

I have never been diagnosed, but wouldn't rule myself out!
From what I have casually learnt, people with ADHD are also on the autistic spectrum.
My understanding is that it is more psychological that neurological.

What I mean by this, is the nervous system of someone with ADHD is intact with no evidence of malfunction.
All the brain cells, motor neurones etc are indistinguishable from a normal person and can function perfectly.
But psychiatrically, since a lot of these people respond well to drugs such as retalin, brain chemistry may be affected in some way. However, normal people can also show great progress in concentration and mental function on these drugs.

Hey, I really appreciate your attempt to contribute here but almost everything you wrote is incorrect. There are new studies that show that normal people taking ADHD drugs actually process information more slowly than normally, with ADHD people the drugs are working to overcome genetic, structural differences (for example, an excess of neurotransmitter reuptake cells). Autism is often almost the inverse of ADHD - sensory avoiding (ADHD is usually a sensory seeking disorder, although symptoms can coexist with autism in a complicated way).

The psychological issues with ADHD mostly stem from a lifetime of negative feedback and confusing failures, especially in those (like me) who didn't get diagnosed until way into adulthood.

Again, I appreciate your engagement but please don't describe medical / neurological issues unless you understand them - we really don't need more misinformation out there.

On second thought, what you wrote might be more about sensory processing disorder, a completely separate issue that presents in some similar ways to ADHD but medically very different.

 

[g-dude]

1. Just pay attention better
2. Take it more seriously
3. Try harder
4. ADHD isn't your problem
5. You have to work harder, you're not performing to your potential (I always loved that one- dude you have no idea...)
6. Everybody has some ADHD
7. Put away distractions (um, put away the world?)

We've heard it all, haven't we ;-)

As a true, diagnosed ADDer (I don't have much hyperactivity luckily) I've found two things that mostly help in situations like this:

1. Ritalin (prescription after a diagnosis)
2. Accepting that I have skills and limitations that are built into my brain, so give myself some grace

That, and a thousand little tricks and systems to make micro improvements in life situations. One cool one: if I play scales on my bass during remote, all-hands type Zoom meetings, I can actually follow along (and not start browsing some random crap on the web, which is what happens otherwise).

My high school orchestra experience of playing Vivaldi on trombone was to *really* focus and count out those hundred plus measures before I came in, then confidently play my part- always a couple of measures too early or too late. Then have the conductor stop everything and start yelling "trombones, you're off again!"

Let’s just say I’m grateful for when the tuba part matches mine.

Doc didn’t prescribe Ritalin, but what he did prescribe I have to wait to take until another med I was just prescribed gets worked out properly. Ugh.

 

[g-dude]

Hey, I really appreciate your attempt to contribute here but almost everything you wrote is incorrect. There are new studies that show that normal people taking ADHD drugs actually process information more slowly than normally, with ADHD people the drugs are working to overcome genetic, structural differences (for example, an excess of neurotransmitter reuptake cells). Autism is often almost the inverse of ADHD - sensory avoiding (ADHD is usually a sensory seeking disorder, although symptoms can coexist with autism in a complicated way).

The psychological issues with ADHD mostly stem from a lifetime of negative feedback and confusing failures, especially in those (like me) who didn't get diagnosed until way into adulthood.

Again, I appreciate your engagement but please don't describe medical / neurological issues unless you understand them - we really don't need more misinformation out there.

On second thought, what you wrote might be more about sensory processing disorder, a completely separate issue that presents in some similar ways to ADHD but medically very different.

And some of us have both of those!

The sensory thing is easy for me to manage - avoid situations where I’m not able to find foods I can eat, and avoid being stuck near foods with strong smells.

And by easy to manage, I mean rather limiting, but I’ve figured out how to make it work where most people don’t know I have an issue.

 

[ejnachtrab]

The psychological issues with ADHD mostly stem from a lifetime of negative feedback and confusing failures, especially in those (like me) who didn't get diagnosed until way into adulthood.

Well said.

 

[g-dude]

Okay, so a few hiccups, but I acquitted myself “good enough” tonight.

Some passages that were too complicated I just muted the heck out of the strings.

Also, I love playing An American in Paris.

 

[Paps]

On second thought, what you wrote might be more about sensory processing disorder, a completely separate issue that presents in some similar ways to ADHD but medically very different.[/QUOTE]

Okay, I'm listening?

And some of us have both of those!

Autism is often almost the inverse of ADHD

You state one is the inverse of the other, even though quite a few have both, including the OP. Please explain.
Rather than making allegations of misinformation, playing the man and not the ball, perhaps you could educate us further, quoting your sources and justifying your claims? I'm happy to learn more, so teach me.

 

[charliethomas]

This isn't necessarily the location to receive scientific information about various types of neurodivergence. I doubt any of us are mental health professionals.

Here's information from PubMed on people who have both ADHD and ASD: Invalid Link Removed

Notice that even in that article, they mostly talk about both as if they're things only children experience. I've heard a lot of that, even from my old therapist when I brought it up as a possibility years ago. I'm glad to see more discussion of neurodivergence in adults on the internet lately, and I hope the scientific literature updates to reflect reality. The DSM, for instance, is notorious for outdated definitions.