• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass AFM...your thoughts?

#21
Well, I wouldn't trade my healthcare in, it's all good, ask any Canadian. Our healthcare is a huge benifit to us. In your country there is a HUGE amount of profit at stake where your healthcare bill is concerned. Thats why you have so much misinformation floating around.

The topic here is the AFM. I offered my first hand knowledge of corruption within it and questioned it's value. From there we did get off track on unions in general but at this point we are getting WILDLY off topic. How did you make the leap to healthcare???

BUT to try to get us back on track I will offer that if I was living under Americal healthcare laws, I'd be all for the union trying to get me more because it's almost certain someday your gonna need it to keep yourself alive.

-eSmith.
 
#22
Well, I guess this thread is in danger of getting hideously political. Let's see how skillful we are in playing through these changes...

I don't see how it helps when folks weigh in claiming that the union/managment is ALWAYS bad/good, across time and space in all instances. Isn't that the same kind of black and white cartoon world Popeye used to live in?
 
#23
Well Damon, I'm going to just avoid the politics side of things and try to stay on topic.

There was a time before legislated labor laws where unions did have a place and did good things (getting 9 year olds out of the mines and into schools and stuff like that)

When companies hired thugs posing as security to surpress employee complaints Unions were badly required and had honorable intentions.

Today it is not about the worker it's about the union and it's ability to force others into it's way of thinking.

So I agree, it's not black and white. There was a time and place for unions, I think though they have far outlived there usefullness and now stand for the corruption there existance was meant to prevent.

-eSmith.
 
#25
BigB - "right-to-work" laws generally preclude employers from agreeing to make union membership a term or condition of employment. You can still have differential wages under union contracts as compared to non-union work but the general effect of "right to work" laws is to weaken bargaining power by all -- union and non-union -- on the employee side. This is a much longer conversation, that goes too far afield.

eSmith - sorry to see you're so embittered. I just hope your visions of union thuggery are tempered by awareness of corresponding thuggery -- and worse -- by corporations and proto-fascist states in league with same around the world...for yocks, check into the Nigerian oil industry, or mining and agricultural work in any number of latin american countries. And consider the extent to which your story of unions targeting a particular venue might exemplify a union trying to hold or improve the floor relative to other venues in the area. As the old union song goes: "Which Side are you On?"

Per my prior email, I'd never say unions are perfect - but don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good!

The OP's question goes to whether joining makes sense in his context. I simply submit that if he aspires to high-end work, he should do it.
 
#26
eSmith said:
Well Damon, I'm going to just avoid the politics side of things and try to stay on topic.

There was a time before legislated labor laws where unions did have a place and did good things (getting 9 year olds out of the mines and into schools and stuff like that)

When companies hired thugs posing as security to surpress employee complaints Unions were badly required and had honorable intentions.

Today it is not about the worker it's about the union and it's ability to force others into it's way of thinking.

So I agree, it's not black and white. There was a time and place for unions, I think though they have far outlived there usefullness and now stand for the corruption there existance was meant to prevent.

-eSmith.
Click to expand...

I gotta say I'm not un-biased. I come from a seriously union-active family background. But for the last 20 years I've worked in HR, on the management side of things. My company has 5 unions in our workforce. Believe it or not, we get along and we work cooperatively all the time. The bargaining units are a kind of partner in managing workforce issues. Do we have our bad days, our difficult issues? Yes. But all in all, we're happy. We work.

All kinds of grey, every day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joebone
#27
That's not true, I'm a worker. I have an Employer. No union required. the second I don't like what my employer is doing I can leave. If they don't like what I'm doing, they can fire me. (within reason, they need just cause)

See, if I can do whatever I want like quit anytime without reason and leave the employeer hanging but he cannot do the same without legal justification then the laws have addressed it and unions are not required.

It's already slanted in the employees favor, why do you need unions? to make it even more unfair to the employeers?

See, Where I grew up has one of the largest unemployment rates in Canada. The reason is that nobody can set foot there without the unions greeting them with demands. Other companies closed up shop only to have unions try to claim company assets. It's become a real problem there. People have to either live unemployed or move away from home for work.

Taken to either extreme on either side, it is not good. Labor laws aim for a center point between workers and companies, Even then, they side with workers far more often than not.

If either the employer OR the union get there way, one is just as bad as the other.

-eSmith.
 
#28
Hey eSmith, if you're going to engage in a debate here you should make clear whose comments you're responding to. I could read your comment "That's not true" as directed to me, in which case you would be saying my experience and point of view is false, not true. Amongst other things, that's kinda rude, never mind the subject matter. That's exactly how we get into trouble on controversial issues.
 
#29
a union trying to hold or improve the floor relative to other venues in the area.
Click to expand...

See, if a group of independantly owned business in a related industry group together to set target prices for the products in that indusrty, Well, it's price fixing and thats not legal.

Who says that just because you want X amount for a gig that now I have to charge the same so you can justify the pricing and now I get less gigs because I can't go take jobs at a price that works for me even if it doesn't work for you?

Damon, it seems we come from completely opposite ends of the spectrum where this issue is concerned. I hope I can prove I can have complete respect for you (and all others here) even if we do not agree on an issue.

Best way I can see to play through the changes....

Cheers everyone,

-eSmith.
 
#31
The Canadian dimension makes this a difficult conversation.

Canadian labor laws vary from Province to Province, sometimes substantially.

US Labor Law -- in the context of unions and private-sector collective bargaining --is largely federalized. State-by-State variations also exist in the US, but tend to have more impact in non-union settings. IMHO each of the Canadian schemes is far more centrist/pro-worker than the US scheme, but I've only had limited exposure to BC and Ontario. For example, eSmith refers to a "just cause" standard for discharge under his Canadian legal rules - but here in the States, without union contracts or civil service protections that mandate just cause, "at-will" is the general rule.

Many of the neat features one now finds in various schemes -- US or Canadian -- that protect worker rights exist through union activity. Some say that union success with such measures was a strong step in rendering unions increasingly irrelevant - why look to the union if the state already provides the protection? In this regard, consider the extent to which laws can change, and whether change for the worse will quickly follow if the union movement is eviscerated.

So to loop this back to the OP, consider the extent to which union membership helps to neutralize employer excesses across the board, and to ensure legislation does not diminish existing worker rights!
 
#33
eSmith said:
How did you make the leap to healthcare???

BUT to try to get us back on track I will offer that if I was living under Americal healthcare laws, I'd be all for the union trying to get me more because it's almost certain someday your gonna need it to keep yourself alive.
Click to expand...

I used healthcare as an example of a collective whether it be union or government making life better for its members/citizens. Didn't mean to get off topic.
 
#34
I remember when I got out of college in the 80's being pulled aside in Lake Tahoe while I was doing a 2 week stint, by the Local delegate warning me not to make any "tapes" for the casino's while I was at Harrah's. There was a war between the casinos and the AFM going on then, and the casinos were replacing local union musicians with tapes and synths on click tracks. The road manager at the time, Vince Carbone, a veteran to say the least, made it clear that we wouldn't be doing that. Ever. Over his dead body. Apparently, the word was they got a bunch of green North Texas Staters to do it. Being a union member, I was already warned before I left New York. I do remember a few of my fellow C.C.N.Y. guys getting stopped at La Guardia airport by 802 for taking less than scale on a trip to Japan with Lionel Hampton. Hamp was paying 400 a week plus meals and a plane ticket. The guys were ecstatic to get the call but they didn't realise they would end up on the front page of the Local 802 newspaper. As a young musician struggling in New York, I never understood why contractors would get a phone call a split second after I fell behind on my pension and welfare 4% quarterly payments. I sometimes was prevented at the last minute from doing a gig because of a phone call from 802. This really left me with a sour view of that scene.
 
#35
On the more humourous side, I did a job at a senior's home 6 or 7 years ago (I was really just getting going on DB and did a lot of jobs like that back then.) I'm just loading my bass in the front door when this bald-headed 90-something year old resident came rushing up to me. "You guys are in the union, aren't you?" he demanded. I should have asked him if he was paying scale but instead I just grinned and we went ahead with "Honeysuckle Rose" and "Sweet Sue" and all them oldies...

That's an active local if they've even tied up all the seniors homes!
 
#36
Talk about seniors. I used to work this little continental restraurant in Santa Monica in the 90's. I was playing one day, and in walks Red Norvo. I knew it was him. He had his lunch and left. Nearly peed in my pants. Another time, I was playing on guitar, "What are You Doing the Rest of Your Life" and I look up and this senior's playing changes on the table cloth with me(air piano). My buddy, Clarence the bass player says to me after the set,"Do you know who that is?" I say"no". He says,"he wants to talk to ya". I go over and he says,"nice changes, my names Paul". Well he proceeds to show me an ending which was just gorgeous. I said goodbye and never saw him again. My buddy said,"You know who that is right?" I said, "I don't know." He says, "his last name is Smith."

p.s. Because of the prodigious youth here in this forum, I'm sure that will go over 95% of the heads here at talkbass and be just another chuckcorbisiero OT derailment. Sorry guys. :hiding:
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back