Age Discrimination

[GBBSbassist]

you have your opinion and look at it from your perspective..and I have my opinion and look at it from my perspective..

Everyone has a right to their opinion. That's one thing I absolutely love about living in the U.S., a melting pot of many races and people from all backgrounds. Everyone has an opinion on everything and their background will factor into that. That's a beautiful thing and I hope we never lose that freedom. The issue with that though is that many people confuse them having an opinion with them simply believing in a falsehood.

The challenges I've pointed out that face the up and coming younger generation are not a matter of perspective in any way, shape, or form. I'm stating facts here, completely devoid of opinion. College tuition costs are increasing at a much faster percentage than annual income is increasing. Housing costs are increasing at a much fast percentage than income is increasing. Healthcare is an absolute mess right now in the U.S. and it's only going to get worse, though in all fairness, that affects everyone of all ages. Social Security, which I've been paying into for almost twenty years now, will be GONE by time I'm of age to collect it. How should I feel about that?

So when you say that the younger generation weren't taught how to save, you're just completely wrong. We just can't use a strategy that worked for you in your day. We have a thinner margin than you can even imagine, and if I sound like I'm upset, I apologize. I'm not intending to personally attack you.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who attempted not to go to college right away and save money for a house, only to do that, and have the housing market in my area tank, so now I'll be out half of my investment. I decided to go to college only for certifications and I still have quite the tuition bill to pay back for the next several years. All while working 50 hours a week. I'm not sitting here working part time complaining that "the man" is just not giving me any help.

 

[Korladis]

you have your opinion and look at it from your perspective..and I have my opinion and look at it from my perspective..

Get some glasses then, because your perspective seems pretty lacking.

You're entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts.

 

[P. Aaron]

I'm not going to get my soapbox completely out..... but I will say this.

It's not your hair.

If you guys DRESSED the part, ACTED the part, and put on a show, they wouldn't give a crap what color your hair is.

The real problem is that most gray haired misicians are LAZY. Don't worry. I'm almost 47 and most forty-somethings are just as lazy.

You can NOT show up in shorts and Fender Tshirts to a gig..... ANY gig. You can NOT show up in white New Balance sneakers... to ANY gig. You can NOT show up with zero lights in a bar. Unless you are in a Buffett tribite band, you can NOT wear a Hawaiian camouflage shirt amd a straw hat to ANY gig.

No, great musicianship is NOT enough. You have to LOOK the part and ACT the part.

If you had the look, put on a show, AND kept a crowd until closing time, you would have more work than you wanted.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, (other than other musicians) wants to see a bunch of dumpy old guys who look like they just got off the riding mower playing CCR and Atlanta Rhythm Section all night. Nobody.

I've said it before and will say it again. Try a little harder. Don't be lazy.

In case someone hasn’t noticed, the live entertainer faces a few new challenges. The biggest one being real time competition from the smart phone and text messages from 3rd parties trying to pull people out of venues to other ‘cooler’ venues or social places.

You HAVE TO dress and look the part. Entertainment today IS visual first and musical 2nd. If you have a front-person, you might get away with slacking off a bit on appearance and onstage motion. The music IS secondary as people already HAVE these songs in their heads. Your note-for-note precision playing isn’t necessary as much as showing the audience you love doing this for them.

Many player’s intense focus on gear has to include how you look onstage. What you wear matters. How you look matters. Look at those YouTube videos with a bazillion hits and use those imagery clues to enhance your own act. My onstage wardrobe budget is comparable to what I’ve spent on the gear I use.

FACT: Young people stay out later, drink more & spend their money carelessly than someone in the late 30’s or above. That’s the market working...as it always has.

FWIW; I play in an old-school Country act right now. Average audience age? 60. I still dress as an entertainer because that’s the job. They don’t care about the bass I play.

Even with all the attention to ALL the details, entertainment is the most sexist, ageist, over all discriminatory profession that allows such discrimination because that’s just how its always been. Love it because it will not love you back.

 

[two fingers]

In case someone hasn’t noticed, the live entertainer faces a few new challenges. The biggest one being real time competition from the smart phone and text messages from 3rd parties trying to pull people out of venues to other ‘cooler’ venues or social places.

You HAVE TO dress and look the part. Entertainment today IS visual first and musical 2nd. If you have a front-person, you might get away with slacking off a bit on appearance and onstage motion. The music IS secondary as people already HAVE these songs in their heads. Your note-for-note precision playing isn’t necessary as much as showing the audience you love doing this for them.

Many player’s intense focus on gear has to include how you look onstage. What you wear matters. How you look matters. Look at those YouTube videos with a bazillion hits and use those imagery clues to enhance your own act. My onstage wardrobe budget is comparable to what I’ve spent on the gear I use.

FACT: Young people stay out later, drink more & spend their money carelessly than someone in the late 30’s or above. That’s the market working...as it always has.

FWIW; I play in an old-school Country act right now. Average audience age? 60. I still dress as an entertainer because that’s the job. They don’t care about the bass I play.

Even with all the attention to ALL the details, entertainment is the most sexist, ageist, over all discriminatory profession that allows such discrimination because that’s just how its always been. Love it because it will not love you back.

Well said....

 

[ONYX]

Even with all the attention to ALL the details, entertainment is the most sexist, ageist, over all discriminatory profession that allows such discrimination because that’s just how its always been. Love it because it will not love you back.

Not only is it allowed in most situations, but it's actually encouraged to a certain degree.

 

[equill]

Young people can actually make money in Australia.

No, they can't. Sorry.

yes..I think you are right..I was in australia a while back.. younger generations have not been taught to save money..they live for the here and now..and many are hoping for that trickle down inherited wealth..they want their cars..credit cards..cell phones and pocket spending money..around 1979-1981

If "a while back" was "around 1979-1981", that may have been true. But 1981 was nearly 40 years ago!
Australia, especially Sydney and Melbourne, is a place where the young want to save money, but can't.

Here are some sample figures:
When I left Sydney in 2012, my partner and I had a combined income well over $100K/year (mine alone was over that) - we couldn't have afforded the interest on a house, even if we already had a deposit. Our rent (exclusive of all other costs) was $2400/month, in a nice-enough suburb 45 minutes commute from my CBD office. Car? Didn't need or want one, because the public transport infrastructure works, and the parking costs would blow your mind. Lavish lifestyle? Yeah, we owned a motorbike and went out for dinner once or twice a month. I visited my family in NZ once a year. And we don't have children.
The house next door to the one we were renting sold for $1.25M while we were there. One and a quarter million for a 2-bedroom house with a patch of dirt out the back to park a car on, three quarters of an hour out from the city centre.
Since then, it's gotten much, much worse. All my friends on a similar scale to me have had to move out of the city, where "city" means the kind of suburb I was in, because they can't even afford that any more.

The trickle-down inherited wealth that kids are hoping for? That's not laziness - inheritance is the only way most young people have any hope of owning property in that city. Why? Baby-boomers who leveraged the affordability straight out of the housing market, and ratcheted real income down while progressively stripping away employee protections. It's not that they haven't been taught to save money, it's that they've been handed a situation in which it's just not feasible.

Sure, you're entitled to your own perspective, but it looks like you're holding the telescope the wrong way around.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

No, they can't. Sorry.


If "a while back" was "around 1979-1981", that may have been true. But 1981 was nearly 40 years ago!
Australia, especially Sydney and Melbourne, is a place where the young want to save money, but can't.

Here are some sample figures:
When I left Sydney in 2012, my partner and I had a combined income well over $100K/year (mine alone was over that) - we couldn't have afforded the interest on a house, even if we already had a deposit. Our rent (exclusive of all other costs) was $2400/month, in a nice-enough suburb 45 minutes commute from my CBD office. Car? Didn't need or want one, because the public transport infrastructure works, and the parking costs would blow your mind. Lavish lifestyle? Yeah, we owned a motorbike and went out for dinner once or twice a month. I visited my family in NZ once a year. And we don't have children.
The house next door to the one we were renting sold for $1.25M while we were there. One and a quarter million for a 2-bedroom house with a patch of dirt out the back to park a car on, three quarters of an hour out from the city centre.
Since then, it's gotten much, much worse. All my friends on a similar scale to me have had to move out of the city, where "city" means the kind of suburb I was in, because they can't even afford that any more.

The trickle-down inherited wealth that kids are hoping for? That's not laziness - inheritance is the only way most young people have any hope of owning property in that city. Why? Baby-boomers who leveraged the affordability straight out of the housing market, and ratcheted real income down while progressively stripping away employee protections. It's not that they haven't been taught to save money, it's that they've been handed a situation in which it's just not feasible.

Sure, you're entitled to your own perspective, but it looks like you're holding the telescope the wrong way around.

I am reproved. You're just as screwed as we are.

 

[Blaze Barlow]

Everyone has a right to their opinion. That's one thing I absolutely love about living in the U.S., a melting pot of many races and people from all backgrounds. Everyone has an opinion on everything and their background will factor into that. That's a beautiful thing and I hope we never lose that freedom. The issue with that though is that many people confuse them having an opinion with them simply believing in a falsehood.

The challenges I've pointed out that face the up and coming younger generation are not a matter of perspective in any way, shape, or form. I'm stating facts here, completely devoid of opinion. College tuition costs are increasing at a much faster percentage than annual income is increasing. Housing costs are increasing at a much fast percentage than income is increasing. Healthcare is an absolute mess right now in the U.S. and it's only going to get worse, though in all fairness, that affects everyone of all ages. Social Security, which I've been paying into for almost twenty years now, will be GONE by time I'm of age to collect it. How should I feel about that?

So when you say that the younger generation weren't taught how to save, you're just completely wrong. We just can't use a strategy that worked for you in your day. We have a thinner margin than you can even imagine, and if I sound like I'm upset, I apologize. I'm not intending to personally attack you.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who attempted not to go to college right away and save money for a house, only to do that, and have the housing market in my area tank, so now I'll be out half of my investment. I decided to go to college only for certifications and I still have quite the tuition bill to pay back for the next several years. All while working 50 hours a week. I'm not sitting here working part time complaining that "the man" is just not giving me any help.

No, they can't. Sorry.


If "a while back" was "around 1979-1981", that may have been true. But 1981 was nearly 40 years ago!
Australia, especially Sydney and Melbourne, is a place where the young want to save money, but can't.

Here are some sample figures:
When I left Sydney in 2012, my partner and I had a combined income well over $100K/year (mine alone was over that) - we couldn't have afforded the interest on a house, even if we already had a deposit. Our rent (exclusive of all other costs) was $2400/month, in a nice-enough suburb 45 minutes commute from my CBD office. Car? Didn't need or want one, because the public transport infrastructure works, and the parking costs would blow your mind. Lavish lifestyle? Yeah, we owned a motorbike and went out for dinner once or twice a month. I visited my family in NZ once a year. And we don't have children.
The house next door to the one we were renting sold for $1.25M while we were there. One and a quarter million for a 2-bedroom house with a patch of dirt out the back to park a car on, three quarters of an hour out from the city centre.
Since then, it's gotten much, much worse. All my friends on a similar scale to me have had to move out of the city, where "city" means the kind of suburb I was in, because they can't even afford that any more.

The trickle-down inherited wealth that kids are hoping for? That's not laziness - inheritance is the only way most young people have any hope of owning property in that city. Why? Baby-boomers who leveraged the affordability straight out of the housing market, and ratcheted real income down while progressively stripping away employee protections. It's not that they haven't been taught to save money, it's that they've been handed a situation in which it's just not feasible.

Sure, you're entitled to your own perspective, but it looks like you're holding the telescope the wrong way around.

I am sure that there are people in Australia at different income levels just as anywhere else..I just went to a real estate site on the internet for australia..and I see the same price spread for homes there as they are in lots of places across the country here in the US and my home town..I saw some really nice homes in the $250,000 to $400,000 range..lots of homes in my area sell for the same thing..of course there are cheaper and higher price homes..but I dont see that home ownership is unattainable in Australia..even with the difference in the value of money..one thing I remember about Australia is that there was a large portion of the country that was inhabitable..and I think I remember most of it was in the central regions of the country..as I remember..most of the population lived on or near the coastline..I am not sure about the supply and demand level for housing there..but it appears there are houses for sale in a lot of places..the internet also said that the unemployment rate in Australia was 5.5%..so it appears that there is a good working force there..and as good an opportunity for employment as pretty much anywhere....that being said..I think each individual has the ability to be successful as they can be..depending on drive and motivation..

 

[fingerbun]

I am sure that there are people in Australia at different income levels just as anywhere else..I just went to a real estate site on the internet for australia..and I see the same price spread for homes there as they are in lots of places across the country here in the US and my home town..I saw some really nice homes in the $250,000 to $400,000 range..lots of homes in my area sell for the same thing..of course there are cheaper and higher price homes..but I dont see that home ownership is unattainable in Australia..even with the difference in the value of money..one thing I remember about Australia is that there was a large portion of the country that was inhabitable..and I think I remember most of it was in the central regions of the country..as I remember..most of the population lived on or near the coastline..I am not sure about the supply and demand level for housing there..but it appears there are houses for sale in a lot of places..the internet also said that the unemployment rate in Australia was 5.5%..so it appears that there is a good working force there..and as good an opportunity for employment as pretty much anywhere....that being said..I think each individual has the ability to be successful as they can be..depending on drive and motivation..

Housing affordability is definitely in crisis here. In the US you had a price correction in 2008. We didn’t. You need to remember that we are about the same size as the USA with one tenth of the population. There is a gap between where the cheap housing is and where the jobs are, much more than in the US. It’s definitely much harder for my kids than it was for me.

 

[MJ_Sotti]

bunch of grown ups. That's the bass player in the back attempting a Peter Gabriel face.

 

[Blaze Barlow]

Housing affordability is definitely in crisis here. In the US you had a price correction in 2008. We didn’t. You need to remember that we are about the same size as the USA with one tenth of the population. There is a gap between where the cheap housing is and where the jobs are, much more than in the US. It’s definitely much harder for my kids than it was for me.

feb 2009 was the bottom of the overall stock market within the last 15 years here in the US..it was a result of the bombing of the world trade center which took place in sept 2001..the market just went down for the following 7.5 years..but has slowly rallied back up for the following 9 years..as far as housing goes..in my area..we never got a price correction..but what did happen was that the number of permits for construction of new homes took a nose dive and dropped by about 90%..population was continuing to increase at a steady pace..but all of a sudden..not many new houses going up..many contractors jumped into the condo market so they could continue to build something that they could make a profit on..only at a lower price level..the market got overbuilt with condos..the problem was that many potential buyers were fearful about their employment situation..they werent sure whether they were going to have their job 1yr..3yr..5 years down the road..so they didnt want to commit to a long term home mortgage..lots of places were laying off and not hiring in the years following the world trade center event..so many potential homes buyers were now unsure of the future and became renters instead of home owners..so now with supply and demand..since people werent buyng homes..there were now more renters..people who owned rental property saw this shift and in turn..raised their rental rates..the cost to rent all of a sudden jumped by 20-25%..during this time..interest rates had dropped to an all time low..but people still werent buying and were renting instead..the people that had money were the ones who were making money..and they didnt use their own cash..they put their money in the bank..borrowed against their own money while the interest rate was at an all time low..and were buying up real estate and land on the cheap..and renting it out for profit...........fast forward to today..interest rate is still cheap..fewer houses are still getting built..and prices have gone up considerably..the baby boomers are retired and have cash and asserts..the generations following the boomers have a different dilema..many are not saving..some dont know how to save..many are living it up..marrying young and having children..while their debt level increases..so each person struggle is his own..and the future remains unknown..

 

[Rumbledore]

after I crushed an audition, they didn't call, and I then remembered them asking twice how I felt about being in this band when everyone else was older...

 

[P. Aaron]

after I crushed an audition, they didn't call, and I then remembered them asking twice how I felt about being in this band when everyone else was older...

Sometimes, there’s no good reason why you musically kill it but still fail to get an offer after an audition. There’s a vibe, and we all have one of some type or another. The band may have even chose a worse & more troublesome person not even realizing you played well. It’s a lot about personal chemistry. Some band people have lousy ears too.

 

[Admiral Akbar]

I'm not going to get my soapbox completely out..... but I will say this.

It's not your hair.

If you guys DRESSED the part, ACTED the part, and put on a show, they wouldn't give a crap what color your hair is.

The real problem is that most gray haired misicians are LAZY. Don't worry. I'm almost 47 and most forty-somethings are just as lazy.

You can NOT show up in shorts and Fender Tshirts to a gig..... ANY gig. You can NOT show up in white New Balance sneakers... to ANY gig. You can NOT show up with zero lights in a bar. Unless you are in a Buffett tribite band, you can NOT wear a Hawaiian camouflage shirt amd a straw hat to ANY gig.

No, great musicianship is NOT enough. You have to LOOK the part and ACT the part.

If you had the look, put on a show, AND kept a crowd until closing time, you would have more work than you wanted.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, (other than other musicians) wants to see a bunch of dumpy old guys who look like they just got off the riding mower playing CCR and Atlanta Rhythm Section all night. Nobody.

I've said it before and will say it again. Try a little harder. Don't be lazy.

This.

Thank you very much!

 

[the slug]

You can NOT show up in shorts and Fender Tshirts to a gig..... ANY gig.

I know I am most definitely in the minority, but as an older ex-hippy I really don't care in the least what the band is wearing. They could be playing in toga's, tye-dye thongs, sandals, birka's or naked for all I care. As long as they can play. And yes, I do wear cargo shorts and birkenstocks.

 

[dave-nc]

I'm not going to get my soapbox completely out..... but I will say this.

It's not your hair.

If you guys DRESSED the part, ACTED the part, and put on a show, they wouldn't give a crap what color your hair is.

The real problem is that most gray haired misicians are LAZY. Don't worry. I'm almost 47 and most forty-somethings are just as lazy.

You can NOT show up in shorts and Fender Tshirts to a gig..... ANY gig. You can NOT show up in white New Balance sneakers... to ANY gig. You can NOT show up with zero lights in a bar. Unless you are in a Buffett tribite band, you can NOT wear a Hawaiian camouflage shirt amd a straw hat to ANY gig.

No, great musicianship is NOT enough. You have to LOOK the part and ACT the part.

If you had the look, put on a show, AND kept a crowd until closing time, you would have more work than you wanted.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, (other than other musicians) wants to see a bunch of dumpy old guys who look like they just got off the riding mower playing CCR and Atlanta Rhythm Section all night. Nobody.

I've said it before and will say it again. Try a little harder. Don't be lazy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So very true and well-said. Some people never get out of the garage !
dave

 

[two fingers]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So very true and well-said. Some people never get out of the garage !
dave

Hey Welcome to TalkBass from another Carolina boy!

 

[dave-nc]

Yeah, buddy thanks & nice to be here. As Keith Richards says, "it's great to be anywhere at my age!"

 

[Tnavis]

Could somebody explain the hate for shorts on stage? Hell, Anthrax made that their trademark. To quote "I'm The Man '91":

"Five guys in shorts, who gives a poopie
We do what we like, we don't care where we fit"

Of course, your mileage may vary. I imagine the dress code requirements are a bit different for cover bands vs original bands.

 

[Rumbledore]

Could somebody explain the hate for shorts on stage? Hell, Anthrax made that their trademark. To quote "I'm The Man '91":

"Five guys in shorts, who gives a poopie
We do what we like, we don't care where we fit"

Of course, your mileage may vary. I imagine the dress code requirements are a bit different for cover bands vs original bands.

the rule is only angus young is allowed end of story bye