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Age Discrimination

I'm imbibing in the parking lot anyway. Northampton is a Massachusetts place where homeless hippies of Portland Or. are still wandering the downtown (which is filled with local art and gift stores) and the average demographic is a degree'd professional divorced woman who escaped her career and city (Boston or NY) and bought a renovated farm and became an artist, all quite successful. :thumbsup: They even have a geriatric choir that is freekin world famous.


You have some very strange ideas about Northampton, although it is true there are an excessive number of art galleries and gift shops. It's an artsy-fartsy kinda town. In any event, I've gigged in Northampton exactly three times in the last four years, twice at the Iron Horse with a country band opening for Junior Brown, and once at the bowling alley with Redhead. Redhead is big in what I laughingly call the Greater Hartford (CT) Area, and that is the scene I'm describing. :D

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How many bands of grey haired old guys did you go see when you were in your early 20s?

Well...I saw Teddy Wilson (used to play piano for Benny Goodman). There weren't any gray-haired rock bands back then. They're all gray-haired now. (And while I'm at it, I did pick up the bass to make people dance. It's worked out pretty well so far). :D
 
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Incremental profit not overall profit should be looked at in this situation. Overall profit includes overhead and fixed costs like rent, insurance, etc that are the same whether the place is packed or empty.

I think overall bar profit is less than 25%. Margins on booze are approx 75%-80% ($1 - $1.25 cost selling for $5) and in this situation what added expenses did the bar owner incur? Did they hire extra staff for this night? Was it summer and they needed to run more a/c? (or if winter, did they save b/c they could run LESS heat?) Electricity for the stage would be what, $50? ...and that would be incurred with any band so I'll call that an overhead cost since it can't be avoided with a cheapo band.

So... If they literally did nothing more than pay the band $600 and get $2000 of sales in return, with a liquor cost of $500, and maybe a performer tab of $100, then they still beat the 25% margin by having $800 of profit on $2000 of extra sales.

Thank you for running the numbers!
 
I can agree with a lot of what you say..but I dont know any youngsters that have $120 disposable each week to spend on drinking and partying..
I can agree with a lot of what you say..but I dont know any youngsters that have $120 disposable each week to spend on drinking and partying..

Young people can actually make money in Australia. Here in the U.S., not so much.
 
Thank you for running the numbers!

You're welcome. Full disclosure - I'm an accountant :-) but the math as you see is really quite simple, and not much different than many other choices the rest of us make in everyday life (fix the 5 year old car or replace it? Get the high efficiency furnace or regular one? Drive 12-15 hours to the vacation destination or fly?) Owners like that one are more common in many business settings than many people realize. Business owners aren't necessarily smarter than you or I... they just own businesses for a living.
 
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In my 20's I was fortunate enough to see John Lee Hooker, Albert Collins, Bo Diddley, Albert King, BB King and probably many other 60-70 year old performers that I may never be able to recall. JLH sat in a chair center stage for the whole show and still had the whole place at his command, Robert Cray even came out and played one or two songs with him but that old guy in the chair never relinquished his rightful position as the center of attention. If people that like music like what you're doing, they won't care how old you are, just that you can keep on doing it.

All of those guys you mentioned are blues players. And they are/were also legends. AND you are a musician.

I loved seeing/hearing BB King sitting in a chair and doing the same thing he had done for 50+ years. I was glad to see him because he was a legend. Most of the people in the audience that night were either older, or other musicians. There weren't a lot of twenty-something non musicians in the room.

I am not going to go watch a LOCAL guy playing covers in shorts and white sneakers possibly on a stool looking at a music stand. When they get to be legends? Sure. Until then, you gotta act like you give crap.

Local bar bands are not given the same passes blues legends are given. Implying that they are is possibly a bit naive.

If I am standing on stage dressed out for the gig, getn it done, putn on a show, I'll be fine. If I show up and play equally as well wearing grass cutting clothes, I'm screwed. If Robert Cray jumps up on stage with me and jams a few songs in grass cutting clothes, he'll be fine. He's Robert freaking Cray. He is not held to the same aesthetics standards that I am. I'm not a legend. I have to act like I care.

Those are the facts. Are they "right"? Are they "fair"? Who knows and who cares? They simply are.
 
Young people can actually make money in Australia. Here in the U.S., not so much.
yes..I think you are right..I was in australia a while back..cost of living is cheaper there than it it here..housing and food costs less there..you can see that in the exchange rate of the dollar..in the current exchange rate..73 cents in american money will get you 1 australian dollar..younger generations have not been taught to save money..they live for the here and now..and many are hoping for that trickle down inherited wealth..they want their cars..credit cards..cell phones and pocket spending money..around 1979-1981 you could get 12.5% interest on money in a 5 year CD savings account..but 30 year home loans were at 17.5% interest..but the cost of living was cheaper..people spend less..and wasted less..cell phones werent around..living was kinda easy..it was a less hectic world..and the 60's..to me..was even better..cars were cheap..a loaf of bread was cheap..people would sit on the porch and relax..not so much today..
 
All the young people I work with drop $100+ at a bar without batting an eye. Us older folks don't seem to go out at all.

It's all anectodal but maybe it's highly dependent by region. Working 20 somethings have loads of cash and want to spend it on booze.
You've never been to the Villages, then :D
 
It's not rocket science. Not everyone younger than you digs the same music you play. And even if they do, the coverband concept may not appeal to them at all.

When I was in my early 20s, I was out seeing local bands all the time. I loved classic rock, but no way in heck was I interested in a cover band of any age.

I wanted to see/play original guitar rock. When I wanted to dance (not often, lol) my friends would drag me to a 'dorkwave' event at one of the local dives (basically electro and techno)

And even now, a cover band is entertainment (hopefully) and not the reason to go somewhere. Here, in the Detroit metro area, the cover bands are usually playing the bar and grill type places. The originals bands are playing the dive rock club bars downtown. While younger folks may hang at the bar and grill in the suburbs, they ain't there for the coverband, they're there for the cheap jagerbombs.
 
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yes..I think you are right..I was in australia a while back..cost of living is cheaper there than it it here..housing and food costs less there..you can see that in the exchange rate of the dollar..in the current exchange rate..73 cents in american money will get you 1 australian dollar..younger generations have not been taught to save money..they live for the here and now..and many are hoping for that trickle down inherited wealth..they want their cars..credit cards..cell phones and pocket spending money..around 1979-1981 you could get 12.5% interest on money in a 5 year CD savings account..but 30 year home loans were at 17.5% interest..but the cost of living was cheaper..people spend less..and wasted less..cell phones werent around..living was kinda easy..it was a less hectic world..and the 60's..to me..was even better..cars were cheap..a loaf of bread was cheap..people would sit on the porch and relax..not so much today..

I just don't understand how you can say things like "the younger generation doesn't save money" and then in the same breath talk about how everything costs more now and living was so much easier back then. It's just so absurdly conflicting. How would you save your money if you had to spend more of it now for basic necessities? You just come off as crotchety and ill-informed.

The cost of living in Australia on average is actually higher than it is on average in the U.S.. Obviously there are exceptions specific to location.

The younger generation has decent saving habits from what I've seen. I work with a lot of people even younger than me (I'm 35) and most of them are investing into 401k funds and things like that. And I don't work in a wealthy area. These guys aren't making enough to have heaps of pocket money. These guys are making sacrifices. None of these people, myself included, are hoping for trickle down inherited wealth... Not even sure what that's supposed to mean, except maybe an entitlement jab?

Now about "wanting credit cards, cell phones"... 9 out of 10 people on this board likely have a top brand cell phone right now in their pocket with a data plan and probably use it to post pictures on a social media website. That kind of thing spans ALL AGES these days, so let's just put the whole "cellphone generation" to bed. If you go to any concert these days, Steely Dan or Ariana Grande, there will be a massive percentage of the attendees taking cellphone video of it.

Credit cards? Unless you live under a rock you should realize that credit score is one of the most important numbers when it comes to purchasing anything that goes beyond cash purchases. Not many of us are buying houses or cars with cash. You have no choice as a younger person these days. You absolutely have to begin establishing good credit early and often. No credit history is almost as bad as poor credit history.

If the 60's were an easier and less hectic time, than consider yourself lucky and stop assuming the people who don't have it that easy are just lazy. More is expected of the younger generation these days and not nearly enough help is given to achieve it. Coursework across high school to college is far more intense and time draining, and everything costs more. Stress levels are through the roof for the younger generation because we have an incredible amount of stuff that we worry about, yet have very little control over. Our healthcare costs and education costs have skyrocketed. Back in the 60's you could go to college, and work part time to pay off a good portion of your education. That's simply not feasible any more. I'm not even exaggerating, law school tuition has gone up 1000% since 1960. And if we don't go to college, we have to combat the rising cost of living with the stagnant rate of pay.

I've probably just had too much caffeine this morning and I'm probably ranting and I apologize now. I had two cups of coffee this morning instead of one. I just get tired of hearing this rhetoric. There are bums of all ages.

Not all youngins are lazy, many of them just can't find out how to do 25 hours of work in a 24 hour day.
 
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I just don't understand how you can say things like "the younger generation doesn't save money" and then in the same breath talk about how everything costs more now and living was so much easier back then. It's just so absurdly conflicting. How would you save your money if you had to spend more of it now for basic necessities? You just come off as crotchety and ill-informed.

The cost of living in Australia on average is actually higher than it is on average in the U.S.. Obviously there are exceptions specific to location.

The younger generation has decent saving habits from what I've seen. I work with a lot of people even younger than me (I'm 35) and most of them are investing into 401k funds and things like that. And I don't work in a wealthy area. These guys aren't making enough to have heaps of pocket money. These guys are making sacrifices. None of these people, myself included, are hoping for trickle down inherited wealth... Not even sure what that's supposed to mean, except maybe an entitlement jab?

Now about "wanting credit cards, cell phones"... 9 out of 10 people on this board likely have a top brand cell phone right now in their pocket with a data plan and probably use it to post pictures on a social media website. That kind of thing spans ALL AGES these days, so let's just put the whole "cellphone generation" to bed. If you go to any concert these days, Steely Dan or Ariana Grande, there will be a massive percentage of the attendees taking cellphone video of it.

Credit cards? Unless you live under a rock you should realize that credit score is one of the most important numbers when it comes to purchasing anything that goes beyond cash purchases. Not many of us are buying houses or cars with cash. You have no choice as a younger person these days. You absolutely have to begin establishing good credit early and often. No credit history is almost as bad as poor credit history.

If the 60's were an easier and less hectic time, than consider yourself lucky and stop assuming the people who don't have it that easy are just lazy. More is expected of the younger generation these days and not nearly enough help is given to achieve it. Coursework across high school to college is far more intense and time draining, and everything costs more. Stress levels are through the roof for the younger generation because we have an incredible amount of stuff that we worry about, yet have very little control over. Our healthcare costs and education costs have skyrocketed. Back in the 60's you could go to college, and work part time to pay off a good portion of your education. That's simply not feasible any more. I'm not even exaggerating, law school tuition has gone up 1000% since 1960. And if we don't go to college, we have to combat the rising cost of living with the stagnant rate of pay.

I've probably just had too much caffeine this morning and I'm probably ranting and I apologize now. I had two cups of coffee this morning instead of one. I just get tired of hearing this rhetoric. There are bums of all ages.

Not all youngins are lazy, many of them just can't find out how to do 25 hours of work in a 24 hour day.
Amen
 
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Here, in the Detroit metro area, the cover bands are usually playing the bar and grill type places. The originals bands are playing the dive rock club bars downtown. While younger folks may hang at the bar and grill in the suburbs, they ain't there for the coverband, they're there for the cheap jagerbombs.

Same in Chi, except not jagerbombs, they like the Red Bull shooters, what are horrible. FWIW, 58 here, we do originals (me and some 60 y.o.'s) and call ourselves a "recording project". I just can't be arsed anymore to find gigs, and especially not in the 'burbs. Mebbe I should consider tryna set up a house-party thing ...
 
Same in Chi, except not jagerbombs, they like the Red Bull shooters, what are horrible. FWIW, 58 here, we do originals (me and some 60 y.o.'s) and call ourselves a "recording project". I just can't be arsed anymore to find gigs, and especially not in the 'burbs. Mebbe I should consider tryna set up a house-party thing ...
Fwiw, a jagerbomb is a red bull shooter. And yes, tastes as good as it sounds:vomit:
 
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If I am standing on stage dressed out for the gig, getn it done, putn on a show, I'll be fine. If I show up and play equally as well wearing grass cutting clothes, I'm screwed. If Robert Cray jumps up on stage with me and jams a few songs in grass cutting clothes, he'll be fine. He's Robert freaking Cray. He is not held to the same aesthetics standards that I am. I'm not a legend. I have to act like I care.

Those are the facts. Are they "right"? Are they "fair"? Who knows and who cares? They simply are.

Well, I can't argue with that. I was trying to make the point that stage presence, crowd appeal and the ability to be appreciated by different generations doesn't necessarily have to be limited by age, but I guess it was a pretty hamhanded attempt.
 
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I just don't understand how you can say things like "the younger generation doesn't save money" and then in the same breath talk about how everything costs more now and living was so much easier back then. It's just so absurdly conflicting. How would you save your money if you had to spend more of it now for basic necessities? You just come off as crotchety and ill-informed.

The cost of living in Australia on average is actually higher than it is on average in the U.S.. Obviously there are exceptions specific to location.

The younger generation has decent saving habits from what I've seen. I work with a lot of people even younger than me (I'm 35) and most of them are investing into 401k funds and things like that. And I don't work in a wealthy area. These guys aren't making enough to have heaps of pocket money. These guys are making sacrifices. None of these people, myself included, are hoping for trickle down inherited wealth... Not even sure what that's supposed to mean, except maybe an entitlement jab?

Now about "wanting credit cards, cell phones"... 9 out of 10 people on this board likely have a top brand cell phone right now in their pocket with a data plan and probably use it to post pictures on a social media website. That kind of thing spans ALL AGES these days, so let's just put the whole "cellphone generation" to bed. If you go to any concert these days, Steely Dan or Ariana Grande, there will be a massive percentage of the attendees taking cellphone video of it.

Credit cards? Unless you live under a rock you should realize that credit score is one of the most important numbers when it comes to purchasing anything that goes beyond cash purchases. Not many of us are buying houses or cars with cash. You have no choice as a younger person these days. You absolutely have to begin establishing good credit early and often. No credit history is almost as bad as poor credit history.

If the 60's were an easier and less hectic time, than consider yourself lucky and stop assuming the people who don't have it that easy are just lazy. More is expected of the younger generation these days and not nearly enough help is given to achieve it. Coursework across high school to college is far more intense and time draining, and everything costs more. Stress levels are through the roof for the younger generation because we have an incredible amount of stuff that we worry about, yet have very little control over. Our healthcare costs and education costs have skyrocketed. Back in the 60's you could go to college, and work part time to pay off a good portion of your education. That's simply not feasible any more. I'm not even exaggerating, law school tuition has gone up 1000% since 1960. And if we don't go to college, we have to combat the rising cost of living with the stagnant rate of pay.

I've probably just had too much caffeine this morning and I'm probably ranting and I apologize now. I had two cups of coffee this morning instead of one. I just get tired of hearing this rhetoric. There are bums of all ages.

Not all youngins are lazy, many of them just can't find out how to do 25 hours of work in a 24 hour day.
Exactly.

I don't even have a credit card.
 
I just don't understand how you can say things like "the younger generation doesn't save money" and then in the same breath talk about how everything costs more now and living was so much easier back then. It's just so absurdly conflicting. How would you save your money if you had to spend more of it now for basic necessities? You just come off as crotchety and ill-informed.

The cost of living in Australia on average is actually higher than it is on average in the U.S.. Obviously there are exceptions specific to location.

The younger generation has decent saving habits from what I've seen. I work with a lot of people even younger than me (I'm 35) and most of them are investing into 401k funds and things like that. And I don't work in a wealthy area. These guys aren't making enough to have heaps of pocket money. These guys are making sacrifices. None of these people, myself included, are hoping for trickle down inherited wealth... Not even sure what that's supposed to mean, except maybe an entitlement jab?

Now about "wanting credit cards, cell phones"... 9 out of 10 people on this board likely have a top brand cell phone right now in their pocket with a data plan and probably use it to post pictures on a social media website. That kind of thing spans ALL AGES these days, so let's just put the whole "cellphone generation" to bed. If you go to any concert these days, Steely Dan or Ariana Grande, there will be a massive percentage of the attendees taking cellphone video of it.

Credit cards? Unless you live under a rock you should realize that credit score is one of the most important numbers when it comes to purchasing anything that goes beyond cash purchases. Not many of us are buying houses or cars with cash. You have no choice as a younger person these days. You absolutely have to begin establishing good credit early and often. No credit history is almost as bad as poor credit history.

If the 60's were an easier and less hectic time, than consider yourself lucky and stop assuming the people who don't have it that easy are just lazy. More is expected of the younger generation these days and not nearly enough help is given to achieve it. Coursework across high school to college is far more intense and time draining, and everything costs more. Stress levels are through the roof for the younger generation because we have an incredible amount of stuff that we worry about, yet have very little control over. Our healthcare costs and education costs have skyrocketed. Back in the 60's you could go to college, and work part time to pay off a good portion of your education. That's simply not feasible any more. I'm not even exaggerating, law school tuition has gone up 1000% since 1960. And if we don't go to college, we have to combat the rising cost of living with the stagnant rate of pay.

I've probably just had too much caffeine this morning and I'm probably ranting and I apologize now. I had two cups of coffee this morning instead of one. I just get tired of hearing this rhetoric. There are bums of all ages.

Not all youngins are lazy, many of them just can't find out how to do 25 hours of work in a 24 hour day.
you have your opinion and look at it from your perspective..and I have my opinion and look at it from my perspective..