Aguilar GS 212 - all speakers blown?!

[Kragnorak]

Okay, I'm pretty good at music, but I'm bad at understanding cabinets and wattage and resistance, so here I am.

My full rig is a Genz Benz Shuttlemax 12.2 which outputs 600 watts at 4 ohms if you use both outputs.

When I play hard rock/metal gigs, I use a GS 212 and a GS 112 as a stack. This is what I did a few weeks ago, and I played an outdoor gig which means loud and not necessarily the best power conditions. I blame the outdoor gig for what happened next...

Last weekend I played a jazz gig and used the same head with the GS 212 and... ZERO SOUND - I tried every cable and bit of equipment I had (including a different head) until the last thing I tried which was to schlep down the hill and come back with the GS 112 cab. It worked perfectly.

So a couple days ago I brought the 212 to one of the music shops that still does repairs and dropped it off. While I was there, the fellow tried each input (Speakon & regular) and confirmed that there were zero sounds. This made me assume there was something disconnected between the panel and the speakers.

Today I found out that there is a note on the cab saying that every speaker is blown.

Here are my many questions:

• How is this possible?! This cab even has a tweeter or two. How could every single speaker be blown at the same time? I can't figure out what kind of event would harm that cab but not the GS112 or my amp head.
• Is it normal or possible for speakers to blow without the musician noticing? The Aguilar is a very 'polite' cabinet, but I never even heard it crackle or break up. I'd expect to hear a loud pop at the very least and then a sudden drop in volume. I noticed no such events.
• Should I get a second opinion? What else could be wrong that would make a technician believe that the speakers are all blown?
• This is making me consider getting a more powerful cabinet setup for outdoor events so that I have more headroom and don't need to push the head. My Aguilar cabs usually sound great for jazz but I notice when I play through larger full-range cabs that I get a ton more 'punch' and bass response and I don't have to set my volume knobs as high. (Mesa Boogie has been a standout). What would be some good recommendations that would pair well with the Genz Benz Shuttle as well as a potential real tube head in the future?

I'd appreciate any feedback from those that understand the amplification side of bass - thanks!

 

[agedhorse]

I am surprised that you blew both drivers without hearing the speaker failing. Something doesn't sound right to me.

I would ask them to verify that the drivers are bad by testing each driver outside of the cabinet (just to be sure).

The ShuttleMax 12.2 has 2 power amps, one for each output. Note that if you connect a single cabinet to both outputs you will damage the amp, so don't try that. I assume that you were using only one channel with the 212 cabinet?

Larger cabinets may be a better choice for your tone needs, but that doesn't explain your sudden failure IMO.

 

[Wasnex]

The Aguilar GS212 is rated for 600WRMS and comes in either 4 or 8 ohms. What this spec does not tell you is the mechanical power handling, which can be significantly less than the RMS rating. If your cab is 4 ohms, I would not be surprised if you blew it with one side of the Shuttlemax 12.2, especially if you were pushing the amp into clipping/protection.

If you play on a large outdoor stage with a huge PA, it can be difficult to even hear your amp. I have played fest stages with huge side fills that were capable of producing enough SPL to bury a maxed out GS212. Under these circumstances, the best choice may be to turn your rig down.

The GS212 has a 98dB sensitivity rating. Assuming it can actually take 600W at the full bandwidth, the max SPL it can produce is about 125dB. That is plenty for most situations, but the SPL on a large, well-equipped fest stage can easily go over 130dB.

Instead of blaming the gig, the responsibility falls on you IMHO...it's on you to bring enough rig for the gig. Also, if you don't/can't bring enough rig for the gig, it's on you to know and respect the limits of your gear.

Aguilar used to stock replacement drivers. I checked their webpage and the link is dead. This may be a supply chain problem (out of stock), or maybe the webpage just needs and update. I suggest contacting Aguilar.

 

[Kragnorak]

I am surprised that you blew both drivers without hearing the speaker failing. Something doesn't sound right to me.

I would ask them to verify that the drivers are bad by testing each driver outside of the cabinet (just to be sure).

The ShuttleMax 12.2 has 2 power amps, one for each output. Note that if you connect a single cabinet to both outputs you will damage the amp, so don't try that. I assume that you were using only one channel with the 212 cabinet?

Larger cabinets may be a better choice for your tone needs, but that doesn't explain your sudden failure IMO.

Agedhorse! I haven't been on this forum for a few years so I'm so glad to see you monitoring! Each power amp went to a separate cabinet, so I wasn't that dumb. It's just odd to me that the smaller 1x12 cab is okay but the 212 is silent.

"I am surprised that you blew both drivers without hearing the speaker failing." - My rig was struggling to keep up but as Wasnex guessed there was plenty of aural competition and I finished the gig out WITH sound. The next time I tried to use the cab was a week later and it was silent. Let's say both drivers are blown; the cab also has two or 3 tweeters. Is a chain reaction that blows them all probable?

Recommendation time, as I see you're on the Mesa Boogie team... One of my rehearsal spots has a Mesa 2x15 cab ... I don't know the model but I'd guess an old 800w Diesel. To me the layman, 200w difference doesn't sound like much, but the cab is noticeably louder and punchier than the Aguilar gear. In fact, I don't have to put the Shuttle master volume as high and this single cab with the amp at 375w mode (or whatever) is louder and has more headroom than when it pushes my full Aguilar stack!

What brand and model cabinets might you recommend I buy to be able to comfortably play outdoor gigs in the future? My biggest limitation is that I drive a Chevy HHR to gigs which has some room but not enough for one of those Goliath refrigerator style cabs.

 

[agedhorse]

I would first verify that the drivers are really blown, it's just not adding up. If one fails, it's not uncommon for the other to fail since the cabinet tuning will be all wrong (if the drivers share a common air space).

I will let others recommend cabinets for you, there are lots of options but I would get something with high sensitivity if you will be going into acoustic battle again.

 

[bassclef112]

I have a GS212 and have blown speakers but never both at once into dead silence. One would get blown and sound it - farting/rattling was the clue. I can't imagine catastrophic failure to both speakers.
I would verify that they are indeed blown.

I did it enough times to always have a spare speaker handy and eventually had two. When it did blow it was always my fault, too much power.

 

[Kragnorak]

I have a GS212 and have blown speakers but never both at once into dead silence. One would get blown and sound it - farting/rattling was the clue. I can't imagine catastrophic failure to both speakers.
I would verify that they are indeed blown.

I did it enough times to always have a spare speaker handy and eventually had two. When it did blow it was always my fault, too much power.

"One would get blown and sound it - farting/rattling" - Right? I never heard that. May I ask where you sourced your replacement speakers or drivers? Do you get direct from Aguilar or did you find an option you like better?

 

[musicman556]

The Horse is being wise/reserved and not saying "Go buy some Mesa Subway cabs!", so I'll say it... go buy some Mesa Subway cabs!

The 115/210 combo is pretty popular and that's what I have. Each cab is great on their own and together they are just marvelous. The clarity and evenness across the soundstage is immense. I think you'll find you need less volume than with some more vintage-voiced options to be able to hear what you're playing. Don't misunderstand, you'll also be able to punmel all your bandmates into submission with this stack, but you don't HAVE TO if you don't want to.

The 115 can handle a real 500w and the 210 a full 600w. There are very few amps on the market that have enough juice on tap to cause any concerns, and they sound great whether I'm using a 280w Gnome, 500w Tone Hammer, or 800w GK Legacy or Mesa TT800.

The fact that each cab is around 30 something pounds and a manageable size is just gravy.

If you do go the repair route for the Aggie, I hope it all goes well there, too! The GS series were great cabs as well.

 

[Jefenator]

My GS212 had a pretty rough life - filling large loud rooms & outdoor concerts and being stored year-round in my pickup truck - and it never skipped a beat.
I am a little suspicious of that diagnosis. Every time I've ever blown a woofer, I definitely heard it happen. But I guess you never know.
I am not a certifiable amp tech but I've done my share of woofer replacements and general troubleshooting. If I had that cab I would at very least dive in & check for any visually obvious wiring failures.

 

[Kragnorak]

The Horse is being wise/reserved and not saying "Go buy some Mesa Subway cabs!", so I'll say it... go buy some Mesa Subway cabs!

If you do go the repair route for the Aggie, I hope it all goes well there, too! The GS series were great cabs as well.

Yeah, I'm still shocked because I never heard a single rattle in the 5+ years I've had these cabs, and I was pumping the 600w channel through the 115 many times as well and that one is still kicking.

Now my idea is to get the GS212 repaired and reserve it for my medium gigs and then buy something that has an 800w power rating for the outdoor stuff. I'm very curious how the Mesa Subway compares sonically to the old-school Mesa Boogie 2x15 I've been using at the rehearsal space.

 

[bassclef112]

"One would get blown and sound it - farting/rattling" - Right? I never heard that. May I ask where you sourced your replacement speakers or drivers? Do you get direct from Aguilar or did you find an option you like better?

When I was using the cabinet exclusively 10+ years ago I was able to source directly from Aguilar. Those speakers are proprietary and I wanted to keep it so. At the time one or two places could do a re-cone with non-Aguilar parts. I'm sure there are still places that still can.
I see they still show replacement tweeters on their site. I would contact them directly for drivers.

Or see about getting them reconed and not just toss the frames.

First make sure they are truly blown!!

 

[byacey]

I would first verify that the drivers are really blown, it's just not adding up. If one fails, it's not uncommon for the other to fail since the cabinet tuning will be all wrong (if the drivers share a common air space).

I will let others recommend cabinets for you, there are lots of options but I would get something with high sensitivity if you will be going into acoustic battle again.

I agree. It could be the tech was being lazy and didn't even open the cabinet.

If it worked fine last time you used it and it's now stone dead, there is something not right here. There's a very remote chance one coil went open while sitting, but for two to go open simultaneously is beyond coincidence.

 

[el murdoque]

What are the Ohm ratings of your cabinets?
The GS212 can be either 4 or 8.

 

[agedhorse]

When I was using the cabinet exclusively 10+ years ago I was able to source directly from Aguilar. Those speakers are proprietary and I wanted to keep it so. At the time one or two places could do a re-cone with non-Aguilar parts. I'm sure there are still places that still can.
I see they still show replacement tweeters on their site. I would contact them directly for drivers.

Or see about getting them reconed and not just toss the frames.

First make sure they are truly blown!!

Reconing with non-original parts is the equivalent of sticking a random speaker in a box. Not a good way to go IMO & IME.

 

[Fishheadjoe]

Silly question time....
Did you or anyone else drop the cab or knock it over? Physical damage to wiring or voice coils can happen in these circumstances.
If it were me, i would remove both drivers and test them wired directly to an amp. Eliminate any other component in the cab. (don't put to much power into a driver not loaded into cab!)
You have to narrow down the signal path to potentially isolate your problem...
Fishheadjoe

 

[crazyBassClown]

• How is this possible?! This cab even has a tweeter or two. How could every single speaker be blown at the same time? I can't figure out what kind of event would harm that cab but not the GS112 or my amp head.
• Is it normal or possible for speakers to blow without the musician noticing? The Aguilar is a very 'polite' cabinet, but I never even heard it crackle or break up. I'd expect to hear a loud pop at the very least and then a sudden drop in volume. I noticed no such events.
• Should I get a second opinion? What else could be wrong that would make a technician believe that the speakers are all blown?
• This is making me consider getting a more powerful cabinet setup for outdoor events so that I have more headroom and don't need to push the head. My Aguilar cabs usually sound great for jazz but I notice when I play through larger full-range cabs that I get a ton more 'punch' and bass response and I don't have to set my volume knobs as high. (Mesa Boogie has been a standout). What would be some good recommendations that would pair well with the Genz Benz Shuttle as well as a potential real tube head in the future?

1. It's possible if you run the cabinet really hard, was the 112 at the same power level as the 212? Is there a balance control between the 2? Id imagine a 112 at half the power of a 212 would be barely audible as an increase to it though.
2. Blowing without noticing it? Depends. Was the bass rig the only thing providing bass amplification, if so then pretty unlikely but if there was a PA with decent subs you could probably barely hear your amp at all. Even indoors with a decent PA and a soundguy my amp at keep up with the drummer levels becomes inaudible over the PA. The soundguy does like to crank it though
3. a wiring fault could make someone think all the speakers were blown. A technician would have pulled all the speakers out and tested them individually. Which category the person looking at your cab falls into I don't know.
4. If you want a rig loud enough to hear over a big PA you probably want an 8x10 or 2 4x10 cabs minimum. The question really is, is that what you actually need?
Personally I set my 212 bass amp to keep up with the drummer acoustically levels, and use that to fill the room if doing a vocals only PA gig, and at the gigs with the soundguy and big PA I set the same levels then hook up to the PA and let the soundguy do his thing, usually I'm hearing my bass more from FOH than the amp in this situation except when we play really quiet passages.

 

[Kragnorak]

1. It's possible if you run the cabinet really hard, was the 112 at the same power level as the 212? Is there a balance control between the 2? Id imagine a 112 at half the power of a 212 would be barely audible as an increase to it though.
2. Blowing without noticing it? Depends. Was the bass rig the only thing providing bass amplification, if so then pretty unlikely but if there was a PA with decent subs you could probably barely hear your amp at all. Even indoors with a decent PA and a soundguy my amp at keep up with the drummer levels becomes inaudible over the PA. The soundguy does like to crank it though
3. a wiring fault could make someone think all the speakers were blown. A technician would have pulled all the speakers out and tested them individually. Which category the person looking at your cab falls into I don't know.
4. If you want a rig loud enough to hear over a big PA you probably want an 8x10 or 2 4x10 cabs minimum. The question really is, is that what you actually need?
Personally I set my 212 bass amp to keep up with the drummer acoustically levels, and use that to fill the room if doing a vocals only PA gig, and at the gigs with the soundguy and big PA I set the same levels then hook up to the PA and let the soundguy do his thing, usually I'm hearing my bass more from FOH than the amp in this situation except when we play really quiet passages.

#1 - Yes the 112 was accepting the same strength signal as the 212. The Shuttlemax 12.2 is listed as a 1200W head but what it really does is output 375W @ 8ohms or 600W @ 4 ohms and if you use both outputs you can mix and match those individually. I BELIEVE my cabs are 4 ohms each because that's what I was told at the shop gives the most versatility.

#2 & 4 - I'm never allowed through the PA in this particular group. It belongs to the singer... guitars and bass drums go through but everybody knows bass signals are potent and I would hate to get the blame if anything went wrong with that gear. But yes, it puts me in the position of not being mixed as well.

 

[crazyBassClown]

#2 & 4 - I'm never allowed through the PA in this particular group.

The kick drum is the thing that will be most likely to blow the PA in my bass player opinion. But moving on from that, I really doubt your cab failed at the gig if you weren't plugged into anything else. I'd bet a wire has come loose or something similar while moving or driving it around.
Unless the whole drumkit is miced, as long as your amp is as loud as the drums it really doesn't need to be any louder than that, and any PA that can take a miced up drum set should handle a bass as well.
FYI the drums are miced on my big PA gigs and even they are louder from the FOH PA than acoustically most nights.

 

[MDBass]

Okay, I'm pretty good at music, but I'm bad at understanding cabinets and wattage and resistance, so here I am.

My full rig is a Genz Benz Shuttlemax 12.2 which outputs 600 watts at 4 ohms if you use both outputs.

When I play hard rock/metal gigs, I use a GS 212 and a GS 112 as a stack. This is what I did a few weeks ago, and I played an outdoor gig which means loud and not necessarily the best power conditions. I blame the outdoor gig for what happened next...

Last weekend I played a jazz gig and used the same head with the GS 212 and... ZERO SOUND - I tried every cable and bit of equipment I had (including a different head) until the last thing I tried which was to schlep down the hill and come back with the GS 112 cab. It worked perfectly.

So a couple days ago I brought the 212 to one of the music shops that still does repairs and dropped it off. While I was there, the fellow tried each input (Speakon & regular) and confirmed that there were zero sounds. This made me assume there was something disconnected between the panel and the speakers.

Today I found out that there is a note on the cab saying that every speaker is blown.

Here are my many questions:

• How is this possible?! This cab even has a tweeter or two. How could every single speaker be blown at the same time? I can't figure out what kind of event would harm that cab but not the GS112 or my amp head.
• Is it normal or possible for speakers to blow without the musician noticing? The Aguilar is a very 'polite' cabinet, but I never even heard it crackle or break up. I'd expect to hear a loud pop at the very least and then a sudden drop in volume. I noticed no such events.
• Should I get a second opinion? What else could be wrong that would make a technician believe that the speakers are all blown?
• This is making me consider getting a more powerful cabinet setup for outdoor events so that I have more headroom and don't need to push the head. My Aguilar cabs usually sound great for jazz but I notice when I play through larger full-range cabs that I get a ton more 'punch' and bass response and I don't have to set my volume knobs as high. (Mesa Boogie has been a standout). What would be some good recommendations that would pair well with the Genz Benz Shuttle as well as a potential real tube head in the future?

I'd appreciate any feedback from those that understand the amplification side of bass - thanks!

Exponentially more likely that a wire got disconnected inside the cab after your gig, and the tech is just super lazy and didn’t even open the cab up, than you finishing the gig with working speakers and magically blowing everything up simultaneously the next time you powered it on.

Find a real amp tech

 

[Kragnorak]

The kick drum is the thing that will be most likely to blow the PA in my bass player opinion. But moving on from that, I really doubt your cab failed at the gig if you weren't plugged into anything else. I'd bet a wire has come loose or something similar while moving or driving it around.
Unless the whole drumkit is miced, as long as your amp is as loud as the drums it really doesn't need to be any louder than that, and any PA that can take a miced up drum set should handle a bass as well.
FYI the drums are miced on my big PA gigs and even they are louder from the FOH PA than acoustically most nights.

I just got off the phone with the tech and he did indeed bypass the wiring to check each speaker individually and all are dead, even the tweeter. I'm thinking that there's a strong possibility that because I was playing outside in the fall, the conditions were unsafe: moisture on the ground and in the air even though it was not a rainy day, suspicious wiring from the venue, etc. The most dangerous thing you can do with an amp is turn it on and the 2nd most dangerous is to turn it off. I'm now thinking that I just turned the amp off at the end of the gig or maybe someone even cut my power in advance while the head was still on ( I would never mistreat my gear like that on purpose but there are many distractions at gigs and can't be sure). From now on I'm going to disconnect my speaker cables BEFORE turning the amp off!