Alabama behind Kazakhstan in math.

[1958Bassman]

I'm not surprised at all. And it's sad.

I listen to a little talk radio every day and one of the things I've heard lately is "you don't need school" and school is "screwel".

If anything, people have to be better educated to have a future anymore. There really aren't that many blue collar jobs for the amount of people with little or no college. I took a few classes at a community college and was stunned to find out that if you wanted a job as a welder, you had to finish X amount of math classes.

Whuuuuutt?!?

Has anyone been harmed because they learned more math? If someone will be fabricating, they're going to need it. I went to a shop that does stainless sheet metal fab work and drew the guy what was needed, in the way a sheet metal pattern is done and they still screwed it up. After I saw what they made, I almost made a pattern from a piece of cardboard, just so they could trace it, cut it and bend it. All they needed to do is take the dimensions from the other drawing and apply them to my sketch. It was a simple piece, too. Pathetic!

FWIW, the guy next to me in Freshman Algebra was severely disappointed when he got a B on his mid-term report card. If it was a matter of him not understanding the material, it wouldn't have been so bad but he came from Prague when the Soviets invaded and he had done the same work in their equivalent of our 3rd Grade. Of the people I know, who came to the US from another country, I can't think of a single one who isn't more advanced in math AND science.

 

[1958Bassman]

If you want to be paid anything over $10hr or want to weld anything of importance, you need some sort of secondary schooling/tech school. Which may or may not require math classes. Immigrant is right, it's not the same as 35yrs ago when Dad got you on or you started as a helper and just started welding on stuff. I found this out the hard way when jobs wouldn't accept my honorable discharge as proof that I could weld or even operate a crane. That was in 1998, can't imagine it's gotten easier since then.

If you're trained by the Military, don't you get some kind of certificate? How would they (the Military) know if you had passed in the event that you were applying for something more advanced, without some kind of documentation? An honorable discharge doesn't show any of this and if the Military has stopped providing this kind of documentation, they're not helping Veterans get jobs.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

True, without that piece of paper your nothing. It's kind of ridiculous that you need a freaking bachelor's these days just to become a interpreter/translator when any competent person growing up in a bilingual speaking household can translate in just about any situation.

Surely there are competency tests which let you get around that?

 

[blue4]

If you're trained by the Military, don't you get some kind of certificate? How would they (the Military) know if you had passed in the event that you were applying for something more advanced, without some kind of documentation? An honorable discharge doesn't show any of this and if the Military has stopped providing this kind of documentation, they're not helping Veterans get jobs.

They did not provide anything a civilian or trade union will accept. You can show them your signed quals and stuff. There reply usually was "I don't know what this is. " The military may have changed since then, but I haven't met anyone whose mileage varied. I do hope that has changed.

 

[birminghambass]

It's fun to crack on the south and how uneducated we are. Unfortunately for many, especially minorities, this is true.
My background: I have lived in Alabama for over twenty years now. I've also lived in Alaska, Missouri, and South Korea. My son attends public school in one of the best school systems in the state. My day job has me traveling to different public and private schools around Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, and Louisiana. Your average public school in any of these states would rival public schools in most other states in academic performance. The problem lies with the poorest, predominantly minority schools. These students are criminally underserved in these communities. I have worked with many, many visually disabled minority children who were classified as "mentally ********" just so their school system could receive extra funding. It's sad to see these kids with so little have to attend these run-down schools that are far more worried about funding than educating.

 

[blue4]

Surely there are competency tests which let you get around that?

They have to let you in the door first. HR departments have things they are supposed to look for and if you don't have them you don't get in. Even back in '98 when I was looking there are/were just too many applicants for every good job. Why would they give you the time to let you explain your qualifications if their boss has a list of approved area tech schools they want to hire from? They don't care if you were your ships highest ranking Master Chief with enough responsibility to make most middle-managers cry. Do you have a piece of paper framed on your wall?
Also, bear in mind I'm talking about crane operator, electricians, machinists, welders and those type jobs. People like nuclear electricians or gas turbine machinists generally get a much better look. Also, I've been at my job since 2000. So I've not gone thru the process in 13yrs. If this has changed in any way, I would be relieved to be wrong.

 

[Milk]

True, without that piece of paper your nothing. It's kind of ridiculous that you need a freaking bachelor's these days just to become a interpreter/translator when any competent person growing up in a bilingual speaking household can translate in just about any situation.

Tell me about it.... I'm beyond perfectly bilingual (english isn't my native language, native is french), not only that, i have an extensive vocabulary in both languages. I can translate pretty much anything with no problem. I've (massively) read in both languages all my life, i know how to respect the original meaning and structure (i constantly find myself watching french movies subtitled in english that make me yell "THAT IS NOT REALLY WHAT THEY SAID" at the tv) Hell, i have by far more vocabulary in english than the average native speaker. And I've KNOWN people who are working translators who aren't as bilingual as i am. I have tried to get hired as translator but with no success as i don't have the formation. The paper is supposed to be the proof you are competent, give me ten minutes and i'll prove i am as or more competent than the translator with the piece of paper. But try telling them that....

 

[hover]

Kazakhstan is actually a pretty forward country in general. Very diverse in amount of suckage but they can move things in many areas.

Don't forget their superior potassium.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

They have to let you in the door first. HR departments have things they are supposed to look for and if you don't have them you don't get in. Even back in '98 when I was looking there are/were just too many applicants for every good job. Why would they give you the time to let you explain your qualifications if their boss has a list of approved area tech schools they want to hire from? They don't care if you were your ships highest ranking Master Chief with enough responsibility to make most middle-managers cry. Do you have a piece of paper framed on your wall?
Also, bear in mind I'm talking about crane operator, electricians, machinists, welders and those type jobs. People like nuclear electricians or gas turbine machinists generally get a much better look. Also, I've been at my job since 2000. So I've not gone thru the process in 13yrs. If this has changed in any way, I would be relieved to be wrong.

I was talking more of the languages point of view.

As for trade skills, I think the onus is on the employee to make sure they are getting qualifications that are as broadly recognisable as possible. It seems to be less of an issue with the forces over here AFAIK.

Just got to keep remembering that you may need to sell yourself again further down the line, not just honing your trade.

 

[Anthbass]

I know Ziltoid is gonna hate me for this, but I have to post this pic up:

This may be the first time I've seen Foucault show up here...

I raise you:

 

[Ziltoid]

This may be the first time I've seen Foucault show up here...

I raise you:

Comon' you can do better than Baudrillard.

Oh, and why not:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I hate post-mo's and post-struc's.

 

[Anthbass]

Comon' you can do better than Baudrillard.

Oh, and why not:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I hate post-mo's and post-struc's.

I actually like some of Baudrillard's work - The transparency of Evil, for one.

Post modernism/post-structuralism is a mixed bag.

Now, this fellow...

 

[Ziltoid]

I actually like some of Baudrillard's work - The transparency of Evil, for one.

Post modernism/post-structuralism is a mixed bag.

Now, this fellow...

Pataphysics, ewww.

 

[Anthbass]

Pataphysics, ewww.

Don't you have an essay to write or something?

 

[Ziltoid]

Don't you have an essay to write or something?

I have tons of things I should do rather than bitch on an online forum

Philo is long behind me, did a minor in UG and that's it. I'm more interested in empirical political science these days.

 

[Anthbass]

I have tons of things I should do rather than bitch on an online forum

Philo is long behind me, did a minor in UG and that's it. I'm more interested in empirical political science these days.

This is the first time I've heard poli sci referred to as 'empirical'

My wife is a political scientist... we find it fruitful to spend a lot of time apart

 

[Ziltoid]

This is the first time I've heard poli sci referred to as 'empirical'

My wife is a political scientist... we find it fruitful to spend a lot of time apart

Haha, well I specialize in public opinion/political behaviour, government studies and a tiny bit of media studies. When I do qualitative it's really KKV-esque (sorta') and most times I just do mixed methods or quant so...

Go empiricism go!

 

[fdeck]

When you start calling it maths instead of math, then maybe you'll catch up

Maths is short for Mathematicses.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Post modernism/post-structuralism is a mixed bag.

I actually agree. I'm a big Foucault fan, but a lot of po-mo and post-structuralism is a bunch of gobblety-gook. A lot of the criticisms of Derrida hiding in obfuscation are on the mark, IMO. Although I don't disdain him like Searle and the rest of the analytical school does, and I think there is a lot of value in deconstruction. Foucault was always a very lucid writer, IMO, and he never had to hide his ideas in a bunch of pretentious language like many of his peers did.

But Zil's a post-positivist and I'm a constructionist, so we'll always go back and forth in good fun during these discussions. And bringing this back to the discussion at hand about math, the majority of research I've conducted has been quantitative. I just subscribe to Anthony Giddens' argument that even quantitative social science research is still hinged upon a qualitative foundation, particularly when it comes to things like operationally defining variables and such.

 

[fdeck]

I'm not surprised at all. And it's sad.

I listen to a little talk radio every day and one of the things I've heard lately is "you don't need school" and school is "screwel".

If anything, people have to be better educated to have a future anymore. There really aren't that many blue collar jobs for the amount of people with little or no college. I took a few classes at a community college and was stunned to find out that if you wanted a job as a welder, you had to finish X amount of math classes.

Whuuuuutt?!?

Educated people vote.