Ambient/Post-Rock/Textural bass playing thread

[monsterthompson]

I seriously considered Resolume as an option for show visuals.

 

[lordradish]

for sure. consider that all these different shows now seem to have to *need* a visual component, like live video. jazz, free improv, etc.

i like the concept, but usually the musicians don't actually pay attention the the visuals—so why care? and i tend to find the visuals not very good and distracting.

Yeah, but generally, you're not playing to a room full of musicians.

 

[lordradish]

I seriously considered Resolume as an option for show visuals.

Is there any poor man's alternative to something like this? It'd be great to have.

 

[steubig]

To add to this, I was listening to an interview with Robert Rich and he said something along the lines of, anyone with a softsynth can just hold down a key for 15 minutes and make a drone composition. It takes a lot more to go beyond that to create something unique and special.

i don't disagree with him, but you could say this about just any art form. that was sort of a hallmark of the punk aesthetic, right? getting away from the "academy" is not necessarily a bad thing (coming from a guy who did a lot of music school and self-study).

I'm kinda shocked how many don't seem to be able to do anything BUT improvise, every single time. Now, there's nothing wrong with improv, of course, and a lot of my compositions start off that way, but again, I think it's that democratization at play... there's a lot of people that don't seem to be able do much more than make a bunch of noises, and never have anything with more intention than spontaneity. Not always bad, of course, but as someone who's taken learning my craft very seriously (and again, almost all of this was as a somewhat conventional bassist), it can be frustrating to find other people who work with when half of them don't even know how to play more than one or two chords.

first, back to my top comment . . . i think this could go to bar bands too, tbh.

being a guy who has done a *lot* of improv, it can bother me to see those people. hell, i've played shows with them.

but . . . . then there's the whole concept of outsider art and the possibility that a few of these people come up with some really evocative stuff. really, 90% of the time i'm much more interested in their possibilities than most fusioners' certainties.

imo, when you find someone who has really honed their own idiosyncratic language and can really control it, it can be a beautiful thing. (2-3 chords worked for john lee hooker, i think.)

 

[steubig]

**great** conversation, btw.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

Yep. Lee Hooker and his 12 bars and 7/8 of a bar then 11 bars.. then 13 and a half.



( I love his stuff by the way)

​

 

[lordradish]

i don't disagree with him, but you could say this about just any art form. that was sort of a hallmark of the punk aesthetic, right? getting away from the "academy" is not necessarily a bad thing (coming from a guy who did a lot of music school and self-study).



first, back to my top comment . . . i think this could go to bar bands too, tbh.

being a guy who has done a *lot* of improv, it can bother me to see those people. hell, i've played shows with them.

but . . . . then there's the whole concept of outsider art and the possibility that a few of these people come up with some really evocative stuff. really, 90% of the time i'm much more interested in their possibilities than most fusioners' certainties.

imo, when you find someone who has really honed their own idiosyncratic language and can really control it, it can be a beautiful thing. (2-3 chords worked for john lee hooker, i think.)

Right, I can totally agree (JLH is an excellent example of that) and I'm not trying to disparage those types, a lot of this is my own personal biases and preferences... I've always had one foot in the jazz world, as well as a (don't hate me) rather visceral distaste for the punk rock ethic, so I have a hard time relating to that, although I can thoroughly understand it and even respect it to a certain point. You do what works for you.

I certainly don't begrudge any of these people for doing what they do, it's better than not doing something, in most cases. The world is a happier place with more people playing music. It just doesn't always line up with my musical tastes or sensibilities. It helps when I'm able to communicate the musical frameworks that work for me, and that generally requires other people in a similar framework. It's even more complex when you look at most of this music doesn't require 'chops' in the sense that prog or fusion or jazz does. It's more an aesthetic.

 

[lordradish]

**great** conversation, btw.

It's so great I'm having a hard time getting my damn papers graded. Only 80 more to go.

 

[monsterthompson]

Is there any poor man's alternative to something like this? It'd be great to have.

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[ugly_bassplayer]

Right, I can totally agree (JLH is an excellent example of that) and I'm not trying to disparage those types, a lot of this is my own personal biases and preferences... I've always had one foot in the jazz world, as well as a (don't hate me) rather visceral distaste for the punk rock ethic, so I have a hard time relating to that, although I can thoroughly understand it and even respect it to a certain point. You do what works for you.

I certainly don't begrudge any of these people for doing what they do, it's better than not doing something, in most cases. The world is a happier place with more people playing music. It just doesn't always line up with my musical tastes or sensibilities. It helps when I'm able to communicate the musical frameworks that work for me, and that generally requires other people in a similar framework. It's even more complex when you look at most of this music doesn't require 'chops' in the sense that prog or fusion or jazz does. It's more an aesthetic.

I'm the other way around. Young punk kid that got into jazz studies in college and university after.

 

[lordradish]

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This one looks interesting.
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Looks like I have more homework, now.

 

[steubig]

Right, I can totally agree (JLH is an excellent example of that) and I'm not trying to disparage those types, a lot of this is my own personal biases and preferences... I've always had one foot in the jazz world, as well as a (don't hate me) rather visceral distaste for the punk rock ethic, so I have a hard time relating to that, although I can thoroughly understand it and even respect it to a certain point. You do what works for you.

i'm kinda there with you. was touring as a jazz-ish/funk guy at 19, but was lucky enough to see bands like x in their early days as well as the clash, etc. (i know some people don't think they're punk). when punk is about the music and is done well, and not a fashion statement, i'm more into it. and i did the classical thing . . . so i value competence and commitment to craft.

I certainly don't begrudge any of these people for doing what they do, it's better than not doing something, in most cases. The world is a happier place with more people playing music. It just doesn't always line up with my musical tastes or sensibilities. It helps when I'm able to communicate the musical frameworks that work for me, and that generally requires other people in a similar framework. It's even more complex when you look at most of this music doesn't require 'chops' in the sense that prog or fusion or jazz does. It's more an aesthetic.

yeah. they're doing something. that totally counts. and i'm old enough to have seen people who used to suck (me included) get better at it. and it is all about personal resonance at a certain point.

one might add that it might be harder to come up with an evocative self-propelled sound language than it is to copy someone's (admittedly difficult) chops-driven style.

 

[steubig]

Yep. Lee Hooker and his 12 bars and 7/8 of a bar then 11 bars.. then 13 and a half.



( I love his stuff by the way)

​

when i was young and stupid, i thought he was making mistakes.

then i got wise.

 

[lordradish]

one might add that it might be harder to come up with an evocative self-propelled sound language than it is to copy someone's (admittedly difficult) chops-driven style.

One would. I actually find writing this minimalist stuff extraordinarily challenging, sometimes... it can be hard to not 'put more stuff' in it, and be happy with the mood done with the minimum. I've gotten better at it, but it's still a challenge. Then I go back and throw on some old Eno or some Roach and it gets a little easier.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

when i was young and stupid, i thought he was making mistakes.

then i got wise.

As long as you learn and go forward with an open mind.....it's all good.

Show me one person who WASNT young and stupid. I was a a complete stupid machine.

 

[HotelX]

Just found out Terry Riley is playing NYC when I'll be up there Friday and Saturday. Looks like a cool show.

 

[lordradish]

Just found out Terry Riley is playing NYC when I'll be up there Friday and Saturday. Looks like a cool show.

Damn, that's like seeing Coltrane, in terms of the minimalist genre. Enjoy!

FYI, Steve Roach is doing his first NYC concert ever, in the Ambient Church Series, on March 28.
3/28 - Ambient Church New York: Steve Roach at Ambient Church

 

[steubig]

As long as you learn and go forward with an open mind.....it's all good.

Show me one person who WASNT young and stupid. I was a a complete stupid machine.

i keep finding out that i'm young (er, middle aged?) and stupid.

 

[cosmicevan]

Agreed, amazing conversation...I quoted like 10 messages to reply to since my last post, but that's silly to quote all that so I'll just post without the quotes...but AM VERY INTERESTED in hearing more about those NYC shows. I'm really digging in on these genre's lately and eager to get exposed to more. All the genres and sub-genre names sound made up to me, and I feel lost when talking to people deep into this scene...and I have no idea where to start with educating myself about all the nuances...but not sure I really care to understand the boxes that this kind of music is put into. I'm not sure it really matters.

To add some color, I grew up first into metal (I play the bass cause of Cliff Burton)...eventually discovered jazz through my bass teacher and then was exposed to Phish in high school (and they've been my favorite band since the mid 90's) and being in the phish scene and a musician, I got exposed to a massive variety of music (and still listen to new music all the time). I am a huge improv player/fan, but to someone's point, I'm into improv around predefined music. Don't get me wrong, I've played and gone to shows that were full on improv but my ideal is to play/hear original music that is improv'ed off of - not just extended solos, but jamming where there is listening, reacting, and new music is created (type II jamming for those who know about Type I/Type II) and ultimately you return to familiar ground. Music with some sort of purpose. Maybe that's my hangup? Maybe that's why I'm so transfixed on seeing/putting on "a show."

I love weird and unusual and I love noise. Even in my jam bands I was always trying to leverage loopers and I used to have a theramin in my setup so I approach music from my own angle (like I'm sure all of the active posters and lurkers for this thread can say for themselves). That said, I play my music for me, but sure I'd love to have people who are fans and take joy out of the art that I produce. The Jojo Mayer & Nerve show I saw the other day w the opener twisting knobs was the exact right audience for that kind of music. In fact, I was the only native new yorker that I ran into at the show in the back of a record store in brooklyn (can't get much more hipster brooklyn than that!). I was standing next to a guy who drove from CT and another guy from Germany(!!!). There were more than a few handfuls of conversations happening in non-English - and the space was fairly crowded (not sold out though). This audience would have been perfect for the opener to gain new fans...so why were most people disengaged? I have been trained to reflect on things in life and ask myself what could have gone different...better...worse...and when I witnessed that opener - doing what I'm sort of dreaming about (playing to a crowded room with a tabletop of gizmos that I'm building music with), it really had me asking those questions.

But I feel the same about bar bands and rock n roll. If you don't do something to make me remember you, I won't remember you...but if you do something memorable, I'll be your hype man and talk you up everywhere I can. There are many bands where the music did just this alone, but sometimes you need something to get people to give you a chance or to give that extra nudge so they want to see you more than once. Phish is a great example of this...they do gags and weird things like jump on trampolines and play vacuum cleaners, etc...in addition to music that a lot of people are able to attach to. In their beginnings though, people said, you gotta check out this band, they jump on trampolines.

I think that with experiential entertainment being on the rise - and also the expense to participate is getting ridiculous (ticket prices and everything that goes with going to a "show" or event) - that it's really on the artist to think about the full experience. Our society has expectations on user experience - yet so many artists don't consider anything beyond just the art. I am starting to ramble a bit, but if we didn't care if anyone was listening or not, why do people put links in their sigs and host music and even perform outside of the basement/bedroom? There's so much crap out there to weed through...I guess my point is that if you really do hope that your audience will find you somehow, you have to ask yourself what you are doing to encourage that encounter and when it happens what will the listener be greeted with to encourage them to dig deeper.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

Agreed, amazing conversation...I quoted like 10 messages to reply to since my last post, but that's silly to quote all that so I'll just post without the quotes...but AM VERY INTERESTED in hearing more about those NYC shows. I'm really digging in on these genre's lately and eager to get exposed to more. All the genres and sub-genre names sound made up to me, and I feel lost when talking to people deep into this scene...and I have no idea where to start with educating myself about all the nuances...but not sure I really care to understand the boxes that this kind of music is put into. I'm not sure it really matters.

To add some color, I grew up first into metal (I play the bass cause of Cliff Burton)...eventually discovered jazz through my bass teacher and then was exposed to Phish in high school (and they've been my favorite band since the mid 90's) and being in the phish scene and a musician, I got exposed to a massive variety of music (and still listen to new music all the time). I am a huge improv player/fan, but to someone's point, I'm into improv around predefined music. Don't get me wrong, I've played and gone to shows that were full on improv but my ideal is to play/hear original music that is improv'ed off of - not just extended solos, but jamming where there is listening, reacting, and new music is created (type II jamming for those who know about Type I/Type II) and ultimately you return to familiar ground. Music with some sort of purpose. Maybe that's my hangup? Maybe that's why I'm so transfixed on seeing/putting on "a show."

I love weird and unusual and I love noise. Even in my jam bands I was always trying to leverage loopers and I used to have a theramin in my setup so I approach music from my own angle (like I'm sure all of the active posters and lurkers for this thread can say for themselves). That said, I play my music for me, but sure I'd love to have people who are fans and take joy out of the art that I produce. The Jojo Mayer & Nerve show I saw the other day w the opener twisting knobs was the exact right audience for that kind of music. In fact, I was the only native new yorker that I ran into at the show in the back of a record store in brooklyn (can't get much more hipster brooklyn than that!). I was standing next to a guy who drove from CT and another guy from Germany(!!!). There were more than a few handfuls of conversations happening in non-English - and the space was fairly crowded (not sold out though). This audience would have been perfect for the opener to gain new fans...so why were most people disengaged? I have been trained to reflect on things in life and ask myself what could have gone different...better...worse...and when I witnessed that opener - doing what I'm sort of dreaming about (playing to a crowded room with a tabletop of gizmos that I'm building music with), it really had me asking those questions.

But I feel the same about bar bands and rock n roll. If you don't do something to make me remember you, I won't remember you...but if you do something memorable, I'll be your hype man and talk you up everywhere I can. There are many bands where the music did just this alone, but sometimes you need something to get people to give you a chance or to give that extra nudge so they want to see you more than once. Phish is a great example of this...they do gags and weird things like jump on trampolines and play vacuum cleaners, etc...in addition to music that a lot of people are able to attach to. In their beginnings though, people said, you gotta check out this band, they jump on trampolines.

I think that with experiential entertainment being on the rise - and also the expense to participate is getting ridiculous (ticket prices and everything that goes with going to a "show" or event) - that it's really on the artist to think about the full experience. Our society has expectations on user experience - yet so many artists don't consider anything beyond just the art. I am starting to ramble a bit, but if we didn't care if anyone was listening or not, why do people put links in their sigs and host music and even perform outside of the basement/bedroom? There's so much crap out there to weed through...I guess my point is that if you really do hope that your audience will find you somehow, you have to ask yourself what you are doing to encourage that encounter and when it happens what will the listener be greeted with to encourage them to dig deeper.

Deep.