Ambient/Post-Rock/Textural bass playing thread

[monsterthompson]

After testing: distortion wasn't that bad, but nor great either. Ring modulator side sucks and they do nothing interesting together. There is no interesting sounds to be found in this.

disappointing.

I’m currently considering an octave up possibly with a fuzz. The pigtronix Octava seems decent but I’m not a huge fan of some of the sputtery demos I’ve heard, though others seem cool. I tried using the Zoia octave effect but it’s unstable and wobbles like a high speed chorus. It’s actually a cool effect for some uses. I’m thinking an octave up will give the bass a better presence in some effects like delay and reverb.

 

[Spectrum]

Also, I just heard Bobby Liebling of Pentagram say he hates doom metal because it lacks certain songwriting characteristics he values.

That's interesting, given that Pentagram is one of the OG doom bands. Maybe he is referring to many of the modern doom bands, many of which I find boring and lazy to listen to, as if they just record themselves jamming for 22 minutes and call it an album side, without bothering to actually write songs. The bands in the stoner/doom/psych scene that I like are the ones that write really good songs, like Dead Meadow. I suppose with any given genre of music there are a few that stand out and lots of also-rans.

 

[monsterthompson]

That's interesting, given that Pentagram is one of the OG doom bands. Maybe he is referring to many of the modern doom bands, many of which I find boring and lazy to listen to, as if they just record themselves jamming for 22 minutes and call it an album side, without bothering to actually write songs. The bands in the stoner/doom/psych scene that I like are the ones that write really good songs, like Dead Meadow. I suppose with any given genre of music there are a few that stand out and lots of also-rans.

Check out the Does It Doom podcast (019) to hear his point in detail, and because it is a decent listen. He essentially says he dislikes power chords, and hates being called a doom band. His preferred term is "downer rock" because of the emphasis on including elements of sadness, which he says other "doom" bands don't have in their writing.

 

[Phe]

The art of writing songs is rare nowadays. I'm not a fan of riff-writing and at least where I'm from melodies seem to be a second thought and singing is something that the less talented guitarist will do, hindering their ability to play AND sing.
Sorry, a bit of a rant, but I'm with Bobby on this one.

 

[monsterthompson]

The art of writing songs is rare nowadays. I'm not a fan of riff-writing and at least where I'm from melodies seem to be a second thought and singing is something that the less talented guitarist will do, hindering their ability to play AND sing.
Sorry, a bit of a rant, but I'm with Bobby on this one.

I was late in life before I even thought about song structure and writing. I feel like I missed out on so much because I dismissed chord changes and verse/chorus/bridge structure to chase riffs and just paste them together. I definitely went down the “Metallica” construction method for way too long.

The ambient world is interesting because I still want there to be a form and structure, but I’m certainly not looking to make pop singles. Figuring out how to use songwriting elements to give a sense of movement without making it an obvious song is a lot of what I think about.

Right now I’m looking into melody/harmony lines. I just clicked with the understanding of using a 6th for harmony, and placing it in the octave below the melody line. I always had a bone headed idea that the low note was supposed to be the melody.

 

[steubig]

i’m almost always about form and theme (melody).

ideas and organization.

 

[Phe]

Harmonic movement is where it's at, be it strict or implied harmony. I regret not learning piano. It's funny (or sad) that bass is so fundamental for harmony, yet we are often quite bad at recognizing chords.

 

[RyanKinBK]

Harmonic movement is where it's at, be it strict or implied harmony. I regret not learning piano. It's funny (or sad) that bass is so fundamental for harmony, yet we are often quite bad at recognizing chords.

Incidentally, if anyone is interested in developing their harmonic ears a bit, check out the Harmony Cloud app. I’ve practiced with it off and on for a few months, and it’s definitely challenging and helpful.

IMO, chord ID is certainly useful, but being able to intuitively play your instruments (or sing) within harmony without thinking about it technically can be even more powerful.

 

[steubig]

at this point, for me, i often tend to veer towards *sonorities* rather then harmony per se (for example, i like superimposing quarter-tone clouds over more regular chords).

but i’ve spent a fair amount of time working on harmony too.

one thought: a baroque composer, rameau, believed rhat music came out of harmony rather than melody (theme for me). i’m not as into his work as i am someone like bach, who seems more thematic.

and, of course, sometimes harmonic progression *is* the theme.

(or something like that)

anyway for me, it’s good to have a balance between these things.

 

[Phe]

I've wanted to try polychordal music, but as I don't play keys and am somewhat clumsy with guitar I haven't been able to try it myself or get anyone to try it with me.

Tell me more about this sonoritical (?) approach! Sounds interesting.

 

[steubig]

I've wanted to try polychordal music, but as I don't play keys and am somewhat clumsy with guitar I haven't been able to try it myself or get anyone to try it with me.

Tell me more about this sonoritical (?) approach! Sounds interesting.

deep subject. one that i'm not super-great on. i bet @Bob_Ross can also supply information (he took real comp classes). i tend to be pretty bone-headed about it and go for (work towards) sounds i like.

"sonority" to me is about how something sounds, as opposed to its *function*. a long tradition of this in classical music.

if you already know the following, sorry for being redundant.

wagner, debussy, etc., didn't always rely on *function* (I-IV-V, etc.), but more on harmonic movement (which might be what you're talking about?). some jazz and rock folks get into this as well.

polychords: stravinksy's "petroushka chord" is a good example—F# major over C major; likewise the "rite of spring chord" which is a Eb dom 7 over an E bass (iirc). anyway, stravinksy, honneger, milhaud were into bitonality (among other things). there are probably more that i'm not coming up with right now. sometimes it's as simple as one chord superimposed on another. (knowledge of piano might not be as important as messing around and find things you like? in other words, facility isn't the key, investigation is.) later you get people like ligeti and penderecki, who used a lot of quarter tones in their music. legiti's choral music figured heavily in "2001." penderecki's stuff has been copied for numerous horror films (and more). scelsi is in there too (and a bridge to the specteralists). partch and other microtonalists. later you can get into people like lachenmann who is doing musique concrete instrumentale (which uses acoustic instruments to get almost electronic sounds) or the specteralists (who get into computer analysis of overtones to create "harmony"; gets into extended overtones) . . . imo, they're all more into the way things sound and instrumental color than "traditional" harmony.

rambling . . . not sure if this is really helpful.

 

[steubig]

music adjacent:

 

[theunknowndude]

disappointing.

I’m currently considering an octave up possibly with a fuzz. The pigtronix Octava seems decent but I’m not a huge fan of some of the sputtery demos I’ve heard, though others seem cool. I tried using the Zoia octave effect but it’s unstable and wobbles like a high speed chorus. It’s actually a cool effect for some uses. I’m thinking an octave up will give the bass a better presence in some effects like delay and reverb.

Just buy a decent pitch shifting device and pair it with your favourite distortion and be done with it?
My best octave up thing I have ever done was a harmony octave up into an og Proco turbo rat and modulated delay from a digitech dl8… just massive walls of brassy sound. Didn’t like the PS3 for much else but hard to get an octave up pitch shifter that doesn’t sound weak these days… sold the PS3 and got a tc electronics brainwaves and it’s ok but nothing like the PS3 was for octave up through dirt

 

[dukeorock]

music adjacent:

Love

 

[JES]

Great post, @steubig. I learned all about the spectralists and postspectralists from a student a few years back and would love to bring that into how I work with synths.

The touch guitar lessons have really opened up my understanding of harmonic movement. It seems like “dissonance” or whatever matters less as you move up in pitch.

For me the challenge has been extended melody. With bass I have always been in genres where you need to voice the root (or 5th in a few cases) often enough that it keeps the melody more in “riff” territory. Though I’m very good at changing key or implied chord just by sounding a low note. I like a good riff or groove but not only. I am toying with switching up my touch guitar lessons at some point for composition lessons, but I would probably benefit from another couple years of basic study before switching up my practice and learning focus. I don’t quite yet know the fingerboard well enough improvise as freely as I would want.

 

[JES]

By the way, if you are curious about the Lyra 8, this software simulation is quite educational. I can’t vouch for authenticity in tone (also: don’t care) but I am really into the hyper LFO concept and may try patching that up myself. My drone commander has a similar approach but it’s not two square waves.

LIRA•8

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

music adjacent:

After one song, really dig the tones and textures.
Definitely hearing new things.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

25913178[/URL], member: 37282"]Great post, @steubig. I learned all about the spectralists and postspectralists from a student a few years back and would love to bring that into how I work with synths.

The touch guitar lessons have really opened up my understanding of harmonic movement. It seems like “dissonance” or whatever matters less as you move up in pitch.

For me the challenge has been extended melody. With bass I have always been in genres where you need to voice the root (or 5th in a few cases) often enough that it keeps the melody more in “riff” territory. Though I’m very good at changing key or implied chord just by sounding a low note. I like a good riff or groove but not only. I am toying with switching up my touch guitar lessons at some point for composition lessons, but I would probably benefit from another couple years of basic study before switching up my practice and learning focus. I don’t quite yet know the fingerboard well enough improvise as freely as I would want.

I went the other way. Was so sick and tired of composition and harmony that I went backwards. Complete disregard of harmony and form in favour of feel and textures. I can still do it, but atm I choose not to stick to “the norm”/
Too much school and jazz\classical police @$$hats. French impressionist stuff like Debussy is among my all time favs. Well Bach also, but thats a given.

Too much polytonal, polychords, counterpoint and transcription analysis. But once again, learn the rules before you totally annihilate them.

Weird I am.
Who cares anyway.....I just put in the work

 

[Bob_Ross]

i bet @Bob_Ross can also supply information (he took real comp classes). i tend to be pretty bone-headed about it and go for (work towards) sounds i like.

Flatterer. Your explanation was fine, certainly more than comprehensive enough as necessary for this thread; I feel like if I offered any more detail it would just come across as pedantic ...which I'm told is true of nearly everything I say, so maybe I should just shut up? Nah...

I will say this: I like to differentiate between chord progressions and chord sequences.

chord progressions are the ones that obey -- or at least, exist in a world that is defined by -- functional harmony. Dominant chords want [sic] to resolve, tonic chords sound stable, yadda-yadda-yadda... the movement from one chord to another is designed to either follow or confound expectations, and those expectations are based on long-extant rules about harmonic behavior (and listeners being conditioned to hearing those behaviors).

chord sequences are designed to sound cool. The vertical harmonies may (sometimes) be called "chords" as a convenience or shorthand but they don't function the way their namesakes might in more traditional musics. They are simply simultanaeities, a bunch of notes that sound together and that are made to be heard concurrently. Calling something a V7 in this harmonic environment is often meaningless, or at best a coincidence. The chords "go" from one to the next because the composer has created an environment where that's the sound meant to be heard at that moment, regardless of (or in spite of) listener expectations and intrinsic behaviors from functional harmony.



btw, the famous Stravinsky polychord from The Rite Of Spring was an Eb7 chord over a full E major triad...or rather (puts on his Captain Pedantic hat) an Fb major triad. The Fb is voiced in root position with a doubled octave, and the Eb7 is in 1st inversion. Gorgeous sound.

 

[monsterthompson]

simultanaeities

I was sure your cat stepped on the keyboard when I first read that. I can’t imagine trying to use that word in a spoken sentence without doing a few rehearsals.