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Amp EQ vs. Instrument EQ

Munroe

Munroe

Apr 25, 2012
30
149
#1
Please excuse my ignorance in this thread. I'm trying to increase my understanding of sound electronics.

Like most of us, when playing live and through an amplifier, I have an EQ stage in my bass, and I also have an EQ stage on my amplifier. If we take it a step further, there's another EQ stage in the house mixing board.

What is the general strategy for managing all these different EQ stages? Should I keep my instrument set flat, and do all my EQ through the amp? Should I do the opposite? Should I use a mix of both? In my case, I'm using a 3-band active EQ on my bass.

After years of playing, I've realized that I basically I have no solid criteria for managing this. That means I don't know what I'm doing. So far, my amp EQ generally mirrors my instrument EQ.

In addition, is there a benefit for having extra EQ stages beyond just the bass and the amplifier? If so, what?

BTW, don't just say "Whatever works for you". I'm looking for some genuinely informed audio advice.
 
#2
It's a nebulous ever-changing thing that has no rules or "universally agreed" ways of doing it.

One reason there's EQ on basses, amps, pedals, etc. is to help SELL basses, amps, and pedals. "This bass is better than my old one because it has EQ, so it's like buying more than one bass"; "my amp only has a three-band EQ, but the one I want to buy has a five-band semi-parametric EQ and a 15-band graphic EQ!!!" I'm truly not joking that that's the motivation for manufacturers adding that feature in many cases.

Once you have all those EQ's though, there are strategies for choosing how to use them sensibly. For example figuring out whether the soundman is fixated on doing things his way, whether you're working with a small or large PA, whether your amp rig is loud enough to fill the room without PA, whether your amp is an important part of the tone you want the audience to hear or whether your amp is just so you can hear yourself, whether you need to make on-the-fly tone adjustments and how comfortable you are doing that using the knobs on your bass, whether you use any pedals for tone-shaping, etc.

The one thing I wouldn't do is set the EQ on the amp "in reaction to" the EQ on the bass, either copying it or counteracting it. If you find yourself using one as the basis for setting the other, then they may both be doing more harm than good, and it's time to set both of them "flat" and reevaluate what you need from one or the other EQ.
 
#3
Here's my general strategy:

I start with my onboard EQ centered and adjust the amp EQ to suit the room (and my tatses).

Then I use the onboard EQ for mid-song tweaks (for example, when I'm jumping from "typical" low register bass lines to guitar-like lines in the upper registers). I want these tweaks sent to the board.

Works for me; might not work for anyone else.
 
#4
I Use my on board eq (or Sadowsky stomp box when playing passive basses) to give the sound engineer the tone I like to hear from my bass. I know they are probably gonna eq it the way they see fit, but this way it at least sounds the way I want it from my end.

Then I use my amp eq to make adjustments for the room.
 
#5
With multiple EQ's in line, it usually is best to start at the front: the EQ on the bass. If you want (for example) more lows coming out of your speakers (perhaps because you're losing lows somewhere in your signal chain, like your pedals) then boost the lows coming from your bass right up front. This is because you can't "put back" anything into an electrical signal; once something is gone, it's gone. So you need more lows up front to compensate for losses down the line. Once you have the signal you like going into your amp, then EQ your amp for fine tuning and room adjustments.
 
#6
bongomania said:
The one thing I wouldn't do is set the EQ on the amp "in reaction to" the EQ on the bass, either copying it or counteracting it. If you find yourself using one as the basis for setting the other, then they may both be doing more harm than good, and it's time to set both of them "flat" and reevaluate what you need from one or the other EQ.
Click to expand...


This is a bit confusing. So one or the other must be set flat? If I find a tone that sounds good on my bass and then eq the amp to better tailor the needs at the gig, I am doing it wrong?
Serious question, not trying to stir anything up :)
 
#7
No, it's not that one or the other has to be flat, but that one should not compensate for the other. Two examples, yours and the OP's:

1) OP: "So far, my amp EQ generally mirrors my instrument EQ."

This means he is not using the amp EQ as a specific choice based on the room, the gig, the song, but rather as something like "if it sounds good on one, it sounds good on the other". And that isn't a good approach. No offense meant to the OP, he plainly says he doesn't know better.

2) AmpedS: "I find a tone that sounds good on my bass and then eq the amp to better tailor the needs at the gig"

This indicates the amp EQ will be adjusted to meet the needs of the specific circumstance, which is exactly how EQ knobs should be used. Your amp EQ settings are "in addition to" the ones on the bass, but they are not a simple copy of those settings (unless that's what the specific gig and room actually needed).

The one unaddressed issue in those two examples is when people make two EQ's work against each other, for example by boosting the mids on the bass but then turning up the "contour" or "enhance" knob on the amp, which is a mid-scoop. There's no sense in using a second device to undo the work of the first one.

Now, of course not every mids knob or contour knob has the same center frequency or slope as each other, so what I'm describing is not so simple, and may have exceptions. But if a user has carefully learned and understood their specific EQ's, they can make those judgments on their own and set the EQ's in whatever way works for them.
 
#8
AmpedSilence said:
This is a bit confusing. So one or the other must be set flat? If I find a tone that sounds good on my bass and then eq the amp to better tailor the needs at the gig, I am doing it wrong?
Serious question, not trying to stir anything up :)
Click to expand...

Not wrong at all! BUT, how are you giving the sound guy your signal? If it is a DI box right off your bass, adjusting the controls on the bass guitar will effect the signal the sound guy gets. The rule of thumb I use is to NEVER boost the bass knob on the bass guitar. The sound guy is most likely to be annoyed by this. I adjust the pick up balance knob only for certain tunes. Otherwise, I just move my hands closer to the bridge or neck for tone changes.

For me, trying to remember several different bass knob positions in a live situation is just too much. I set my rig to sound good with distortion and pick playing tones along with clean tones. My hands do the tone shifting.
 
#9
thanks for clearing that up bongo, your example of bumping up the mids on the bass while increasing the contour on the amp made it way clear! ( I'm guilty of this )

Gearhead: I'm sending a signal through my amps DI out, pre eq. so far so good! it lets me make adjustments to the amp without the soundman gathering the villagers and grabbing his torch and pitchfork ;)
 
#10
The following is based on bedroom practice, rehearsals, and gig situational experience. I play only fingerstyle or palm mute with my thumb (appendage not bass).
The bedroom setup is very rarely more than my bass (WW Thumb BO4) and a 15w Squire bp-15 practice amp with a blown cone.
The rehearsal space is always with my main rig (GK 1001rbii and GK NEO 410) bass straight into amp
The gig situation has varied depending whether or not my bass has PA support, in 95% of cases I am going through the PA.

My thought process while EQing is based on perceived harmonic content. The more bass is turned up, the mids will appear to have been turned down, like a seesaw. The highs are usually more dependent on the room and my physical position in front of the cones/tweeter. Bass frequencies are usually omnidirectional and as the frequency goes up, the more important it becomes to be in the line of fire of the speaker. What I am saying is if you want more bass (in a reflective space, not outside) just spin the amp around and turn it up, if you want more definition, use a chair or cab tiltback. This may seem obvious, but it very important to be aware of this.

The EQ on the bass has to do with making changes on the fly. My bass specifically has a pickup blend, volume, treble, and bass controls. When I want the sound to be cutting on songs with thick harmonic and rhythmic content, like funk tunes, I blend the pickups 75% bridge 25% neck and roll the bass up (to compensate for the PERCEIVED low end loss and mid gain) For songs like reggae I put the blend 50/50 and turn the bass almost all the way up, the KEY here is to turn your VOLUME down as bass frequencies respond to gain and attenuation a lot differently than mids or treble. For songs that are slower and have more lyrical content or where I play strictly a supporting role, the bass EQ is all the way flat. My treble is usually always set flat, because the sound engineer will ultimately have WAY more control over the high freqs than I and the Thumb tone can be too edgy when the treble dial is up into the gain territory (vs. being attenuated, again I don't slap).

For the rehearsal space I use my amp only and have the amp set flat with the presence at 3:00 (almost all the way up) this helps the upper register passages be more up front for solos and such. With more treble, the amp becomes more responsive, by that I mean I can "duck" or "pop out" of the mix with right hand technique adjustments easier, what I mean is the amp is more complimentary to my technique. There is a volume level that is too high where this "ducking" and "popping out" becomes less apparent, could be due to the amp headroom/room size/other musician's volume/fletcher-munson curve/etc... who knows? I usually still don't touch the EQ at that point because then the night has gone out of control (volume wise) and everyone needs to turn down, shut up, and take a break. Ears get tired too, if you have ever mixed recorded audio for a few hours you know what I mean.

The amp/stage combination is hard to accomplish as well, one must marry the amp to the room. If you are on a concrete pad at your favorite outdoor venue or in a room with curtains floor to ceiling and a hollow stage riser, the EQ must be set appropriately. I usually use the rule of thumb, if outside the eq will be bass heavy, if on a hollow stage in a dead room, the eq will need to be treble heavy. I usually start with these preconceived notions.

The PA ... just hope you have a good sound guy. If you want control over this, you have to go out and listen FOH, invest in some wireless and hope the sound system allows for monitor EQ separately. Usually if I have a monitor I want it to be treble heavy, spiky, glassy, and NOT warm or boomy.

Hope this helps a bit, as always IME

In short: I use the bass EQ to vary tone appropriate to the song. I use the amp EQ appropriate to the room. I usually request more treble from the monitor in situations I have PA support. "Appropriate" is based on notions I have developed at rehearsals with MY bass and MY amp.
 
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#11
Very informative discussion. I am having this issue lately also. I'm a little lost with my EMG 3-band EQ mid sweep knob as far as which frequencies I am adjusting. The manual says it ranges from 300hz to 3k but that doesn't really mean anything to me. I guess I'm just trying to get a handle on what frequencies to look for to affect the sounds that I'm trying to get and trying to figure out where they are on the knob. Subbed.
 
#12
driftingupward said:
Very informative discussion. I am having this issue lately also. I'm a little lost with my EMG 3-band EQ mid sweep knob as far as which frequencies I am adjusting. The manual says it ranges from 300hz to 3k but that doesn't really mean anything to me. I guess I'm just trying to get a handle on what frequencies to look for to affect the sounds that I'm trying to get and trying to figure out where they are on the knob. Subbed.
Click to expand...

On a sweepable EQ turn the boost all the way up, then sweep through the frequencies as you play until you find a pleasant one. That's the one you want to boost, only not all the way, use all the way to find it.
If your EQ has cut you can do the same thing to find an unpleasant frequency and reduce that one too.
 
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#13
wcriley said:
Here's my general strategy:

I start with my onboard EQ centered and adjust the amp EQ to suit the room (and my tatses).

Then I use the onboard EQ for mid-song tweaks (for example, when I'm jumping from "typical" low register bass lines to guitar-like lines in the upper registers). I want these tweaks sent to the board.

Works for me; might not work for anyone else.
Click to expand...

This +1 exactly my philosophy.
 
#14
prd004 said:
On a sweepable EQ turn the boost all the way up, then sweep through the frequencies as you play until you find a pleasant one. That's the one you want to boost, only not all the way, use all the way to find it.
If your EQ has cut you can do the same thing to find an unpleasant frequency and reduce that one too.
Click to expand...

I've tried that a few times, but it doesn't seem to boost very much. I've had a suspicion that the unit might be a little defective. I got it used.

I had another bass 15 years ago (Ibanez SR885) that made it very clear that you were boosting or cutting the mids and at which frequency. I was hoping to achieve the same thing with the BQC, but it just doesn't seem to be as pronounced as the old Ibby. Maybe it just doesn't have as much boost/cut as whatever was in the Ibby.

I've kind of started to come to the conclusion on my own lately that maybe I should just keep the bass flat and get some kind of graphic EQ for the rack that I can just turn around and dial in mid-show or during sound check. I was thinking that might help to learn exactly what frequencies to adjust and also keep it simpler instead of having to mess with the bass controls from song to song.

Also doing the playing position changes to change the sound is a good idea too. I mostly stay around the neck pickup area and have noticed that alot of people seem to stay in the bridge area more. I need to experiment a little more with that concept.

Sorry to hijack but I thought this was along the same line as OP's question.
 
#15
There's a ton of ground to cover here.
My system from 30+ years:

If an FOH desk is involved:
The first and most important rule ever: HAVE AN INSTRUMENT THAT SOUNDS GOOD. If you have to beat it to death with EQ to get what you want out of it, you own the wrong instrument for you. I don't care how much it costs, it ain't for you.

Send it wide open full spectrum PRE EQ. This means onboard EQ as well. If it's active, turn it off or set it flat. If it's passive. open up the tone pot 100%. Give the sound guy the most to work with, It's much easier to get rid of something present that you don't want than it is to create something missing that you do want. Trust your sound man to be a professional. He can hear your rig tone and duplicate it in the mix if he's worth a dook.

The exception to that rule would be if you have a flat cab with a similar frequency response to a the PA stack. That is the only way you can judge that what you hear is what the console hears.

I did a show yesterday, SVT classic w/ 810 cab backline, stage crew had it DI'd out the back of the amp and cab mic'd. Turns out for some dumb reason the amp DI is post EQ. It sounded like an SVT onstage but because the cab response is nothing like the FOH the main mix was friggan BRIGHT! I didn't hear it till the play back. It I had been a drive hard clicky player, it would have totally pooched the tone.

If you're one of those players that lives and dies by "Their tone" and spends all show stomping on pedals so he looks like a contestant in a cockroach killing contest :D mic the rig and be prepared to fight that fight.

If you don't have console to deal with, do whatever the heck you want. Start flat and find your happy place. It shouldn't be all that hard.

(once again. if your struggling and having to beat it to death with EQ, it's the wrong rig for you)

The only real issue you should have is, do you want it to sound good to you or do you want it to sound good to the house? And, if you want it to sound good to the house, to what part of the house do you want it to sound good?

It's gonna be noticeably fatter in the corners than in the center of the room. Where are the people? Do you care? Do they care?

I personally set my stuff the way I like it because, my ears care and all the other ears are drunk and trying to get laid.

The only exception I make to that is that over countless live recordings I have come to realize that from my position what I think is plenty loud for me is not nearly loud enough in the room so I have gotten used to playing a lot louder than I would prefer.
 
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#16
I play active Spectors which have 2 band EQ's through a Mesa M9 which has some cool stuff like the Graphic EQ and Voice features, both of which I use for differing EQ points to get different tones.

I set the EQ on my Spectors about even/flat, and only barely boost the Bass level just because it changes up the tone a little bit. I more adjust the pickup blend or pickup volume knobs than onboard tone, however.

I set the Graphic EQ for a more punchy, quick-attack tone that I use about 75% of the time, and use Voice 1 for a slower, more rounded tone that fills out the bottom end. Since we're only a 3 pc, I can do this.

Usually the places we play just throw an Audix A6 or something in front of my cab, so I don't have to mess with DI levels and all that, but I do have a DI Level control so if I go Pre or Post, I can adjust that to taste so I'm not clipping at the board. If I have to go Pre, I'll just adjust the tones on my bass instead of the amp, since the Pre signal bypasses the preamp stuff (G-EQ, Voice, etc..).

Works so far!
 
#17
Here is what I do, and why. I've used this approach in gigging rock bands. I've never yet played where I could DI straight into the PA.

My primary bass has a Bartolini NTMB preamp (active bass, mid w/ push-pull shift, and treble controls). I start out with the bass's volume full up, tone controls centered (flat), the pickup blend knob all the way to the neck pickup, and set up my amp's tone controls for my "bread & butter" pseudo-P-bass sound.

For songs that require a more aggressive tone, I roll the pickup blend to about 60/40 bridge pickup, and boost the mids (250 Hz?) a bit on the bass to get more growl. For songs that require smoother tone, I go back to the neck pickup (or maybe 70/30 neck/bridge) and turn down the treble knob.

In general I don't like turning any of the bass's controls to full boost, because it is way too easy to overdrive the input stage of the amp that way, or even clip the bass's preamp. Some people use 18V onboard pres... that just increases the risk of blasting the amp's input stage.

I like amps (or rack preamps) that have multiple parametric or semi-para mid controls. They give you a lot of control over your tone. I'm now using a speaker cabinet that is essentially flat across the audio band, so that I could DI straight from the amp if needed and have the PA get what I'm hearing on stage.

Hope someone finds this useful.
 
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#19
I have a very simple approach: instrument EQ is adjusted for the song and amp EQ is adjusted for the stage. With this approach, the tone I want for each song is dealt with on the instrument itself and therefore goes to both FOH and the amp. The amp EQ is tuned to the stage and only needs adjusting if I'm not blending well or I can't hear myself.
 
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