Amp longevity

[fhm555]

That's another thing I don't understand about PV ... Rumbles and Hartkes are MIC and are generally considered reliable. PV must have something else happening since they can't seem to get it together over there. AFAIK only their Classic line seemed to stay reliable when they moved production. As a former Mfg Engineer it's a bit of a mystery. If the design is solid, and other companies have pulled it off, why did they start having problems after the move? Using cheaper components than Fender or Hartke, maybe?

I just know it bugs me, as a life long PV fanboi.

It's the pac rim business model at work.
It would not be a big surprise to find out a lot of different brands (and quality levels) are built in the same plant. I worked with some people a while back to bring a benchtop lathe to market. It was being built in Taiwan and our POC at the place it was being manufactured basically told us they could deliver whatever level of quality we wanted, but higher quality would mean higher price. They took their best castings and used them for the turn key lathes we wanted, then put the rest in different groups depending on how out of spec they were. They then built lathes from those castings and sold them under different brand names at lower prices. Except for color, brand, and included accessories, they were pretty much the same thing from the $350 unit to the $1200 top of the line turnkey setup, but there was a marked difference in quality of things like motors and accuracy. Just because something from Asia looks identical to something from another vendor at a higher price does not by default mean the quality will be comparable.

 

[Ric Vice]

Aluminum is an excellent conductor of heat.

Sorry, my mistake, so since Walter advertises his amps as having an all aluminum chassis

would that be because it's less susceptible to rust and corrosion vs the more common steel ones?

 

[agedhorse]

The use of SAC solders and establishing proper waveforms or reflow and chemistry has been solved for a long period of time. It's usually only a problem if you're working with a CM who isn't familiar with the challenges of the process.

Yup, plus following the design rules for PCB layout and pad/trace geometries. Sometimes it can be a problem for very tight pad spacings and pads with angular geometries.

IME (limited as it is) soldering pots directly to a PCB isn't great mechanically, in that a hard knock to a pot (pretty common thing, I'd expect), that force is applied to the PCB too, yet I see it on a lot of high-end devices built that way. Some amps have the protection bars or rack handles mounted on the fron to minimze that, but most don't. What are the mechanical features that separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak? Still waiting for somebody to name some "Junk" amp brands...........

Actually, it's GREAT mechanically when it's done properly and secured to the front panel. When a pot takes a hit from the front, it doesn't matter if it's PCB mount or not because the shaft gets forced into the resistive element and breaks it no matter how it's mounted.

If it wasn't reliable, you wouldn't see $50k high reliability touring consoles built that way.

Is it because the % of energy the amp expends trying to vibrate the ground it sits on goes into the speaker cone instead? Something to do with the resonance of the cab? I've heard of this before, never knew why.

No, it may be because the cabinet is a little closer and more directly positioned to the player's ears and more effectively couples the mid frequencies to be better heard.

It's the pac rim business model at work.
It would not be a big surprise to find out a lot of different brands (and quality levels) are built in the same plant. I worked with some people a while back to bring a benchtop lathe to market. It was being built in Taiwan and our POC at the place it was being manufactured basically told us they could deliver whatever level of quality we wanted, but higher quality would mean higher price. They took their best castings and used them for the turn key lathes we wanted, then put the rest in different groups depending on how out of spec they were. They then built lathes from those castings and sold them under different brand names at lower prices. Except for color, brand, and included accessories, they were pretty much the same thing from the $350 unit to the $1200 top of the line turnkey setup, but there was a marked difference in quality of things like motors and accuracy. Just because something from Asia looks identical to something from another vendor at a higher price does not by default mean the quality will be comparable.

This is absolutely true, contract manufacturers build to whatever quality level the customer is willing to pay for. Things that look identical but aren't really identical is a hallmark of that manufacturing model, now add in counterfeit and knock-off parts and in many cases the customer has no idea what they are really getting.

I have worked with several CM's in Asia, the one I have the longest relationship with is really no different than any American or European company when it comes to quality but they are never the lowest cost either.

Sorry, my mistake, so since Walter advertises his amps as having an all aluminum chassis

would that be because it's less susceptible to rust and corrosion vs the more common steel ones?

Could be because it's lighter???

 

[deff]

I have worked with several CM's in Asia, the one I have the longest relationship with is really no different than any American or European company when it comes to quality but they are never the lowest cost either.



Could be because it's lighter???

I feel like people expect that there is something in the average business model that Asian have figured out to not have to consider that time, materials and effort do not cost anything. They haven't. They will do whatever people ask them to do. If you want tighter controls, higher quality and better materials, those thing all cost them money as well. They will charge for it. The problem is that they are also willing to cheap things too as was mentioned and who suffers, everyone.... But that happens here as well.

I feel like material choice for an amp chassis is most likely a "how do I want my thing to look" Once engineers have figured out the strength to weight ratio and the design and machining either material will suffice when it comes to an amp head. Also aluminum is a decent heat sink but that has very little to do with the chassis or shell.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Every object manufactured seems to go thru a rough patch. American cars in the late 70s, Martin guitars, you name it have some pretty raggedy years.

I suspect the perceived definition of “longevity” changes over time. The older one gets, longevity means something different to a 65 yr old than it does to a 25 yr old.

That said, my 1966 Ampeg B15 is still killing it with all original tubes, speakers, and transformers. A mid 80s Peavey likely going strong, while a mid 2000 model might be in a landfill.

 

[JamesDeGrandis]

Sometimes "once decent amp" companies become crap....

*cough*
Kustom
*cough*

 

[Texican]

In this case I do not agree, and I don't think I would categorize the Rumble amps (at least the 350 and 500) as cheap or junk. They are a more value based product but towards the top of their price range for this type of product and I think their reliability is pretty well established.

This is a good point, and my experience mirrors your point 100%. In 2018 I moved across the country and “started over” with whatever would fit in my truck… and no bass rig. I arrived in San Antonio and with no job, the Rumble 500 head was a sensible option. It has been gigged heavily and was dropped twice (once down the stairs of a six foot tall stage) and I have had ZERO reliability issues. That amp has more than paid for itself and was a great purchase. I have since moved on to higher end gear now that I can afford it, but that rumble still serves as a backup.

I bought a Peavey mega mini (or something like that) from another Talkbasser and it died two days later! Had it repaired and it died again. Never got to gig that hunk of junk, but I’m glad the rumble performed better.

 

[jnewmark]

Sometimes "once decent amp" companies become crap....

*cough*
Kustom
*cough*

Meh, I know several bass players locally who have the old tuck n roll Kustom bass heads and they are going strong, although not very loud by today's standards. I myself use an old Kustom 200, with matching 215 cab at a rehearsal space. Beautiful tone, but, not loud enough to gig at today's volume needs.

 

[JamesDeGrandis]

Meh, I know several bass players locally who have the old tuck n roll Kustom bass heads and they are going strong, although not very loud by today's standards. I myself use an old Kustom 200, with matching 215 cab at a rehearsal space. Beautiful tone, but, not loud enough to gig at today's volume needs.

Old tuck and roll = Once Decent Amp....
New Kustom = Ca-ca.

(Note: I'm talking about Kustom in the past decade... I have no experience with their models from about 1995-2010... But their older stuff I have used...)

The Newer Custom (circa 2011) is the only amp I ever had that a cap exploded inside and the shell fell out... it never tripped its fuse. Pop!

 

[fdeck]

From a hard nosed business perspective, obsolescence is based on expected future operating costs, the so called "cost of ownership." This is related to reliability, repairability, and the cost of repairs. An amp with high reliability but low repairability might still be the better economic choice.

My workhorse is a GK MB200 head. I expect it to last for at least 20 years, which is likely the remainder of my musical career. It might need attention to minor wear issues, such as pots. I've been playing amplified music since around 1977. I've never experienced having to write off any amp gear due to obsolescence. I've bought new amps when my needs have changed, or just due to the joy of pure GAS. Otherwise I'd probably still be gigging my Peavey Centurion head.

Translating this into business terms, a $300 head with a 20 year lifespan is $15 per year, even if replacement parts become unavailable. A $3000 amp would need to last 200 years, to be an economical alternative.

Of course there are other factors. First, an amp needs to be reliable enough that it won't conk out on a gig. Second, we often become attached to our gear, especially if it's integral to our tone preferences, meaning that economics is not the only consideration here.

 

[Ric Vice]

Could be because it's lighter???

Good call Aged Horse, he’s always touted the fact that all the Walter Woods Electroacoustic weigh only 7 1/2 lbs.

 

[Ric Vice]

From a hard nosed business perspective, obsolescence is based on expected future operating costs, the so called "cost of ownership." This is related to reliability, repairability, and the cost of repairs. An amp with high reliability but low repairability might still be the better economic choice……………….



Translating this into business terms, a $300 head with a 20 year lifespan is $15 per year, even if replacement parts become unavailable. A $3000 amp would need to last 200 years, to be an economical alternative.

Of course there are other factors. First, an amp needs to be reliable enough that it won't conk out on a gig. Second, we often become attached to our gear, especially if it's integral to our tone preferences, meaning that economics is not the only consideration here.

All very good points FDeck! There is simply no absolute way to be assured that an amplifier will be trouble free. The best we can do is hope that if it does have issues it can be repaired. Warranties are usually only a year, after that your on your own. While older amps were in many cases were more easy to repair. They probably weren’t
as reliable as some newer amps built on simpler designs. I have a Walter Woods Electroacoustic Ultra that’s had one small repair in over 25 years.

 

[Phlipper]

It's the pac rim business model at work.
It would not be a big surprise to find out a lot of different brands (and quality levels) are built in the same plant. I worked with some people a while back to bring a benchtop lathe to market. It was being built in Taiwan and our POC at the place it was being manufactured basically told us they could deliver whatever level of quality we wanted, but higher quality would mean higher price. They took their best castings and used them for the turn key lathes we wanted, then put the rest in different groups depending on how out of spec they were. They then built lathes from those castings and sold them under different brand names at lower prices. Except for color, brand, and included accessories, they were pretty much the same thing from the $350 unit to the $1200 top of the line turnkey setup, but there was a marked difference in quality of things like motors and accuracy. Just because something from Asia looks identical to something from another vendor at a higher price does not by default mean the quality will be comparable.

I'm so old and have had so many head injuries from fights and bike wrecks that my memory is shot. When Andy was talking about bathtub curves I couldn't recall the significance, and I was a QA Engineer with the CQE certification. But I do seem to remember companies (way) down south doing something similar with gym equipment and bicycles, etc.

So are we saying that the problem with Peavey's well-known reliability demise of late is most likely the result of (and I'm generalizing) lower-spec'd parts, done in order to save money? Is it possible they also reduce testing time during prototype phase, or reduce the number of units they test before shipping? Where would a company like that start cutting corners to save money? Maybe they moved everything to the factory Behringer/TC uses?

It all costs money. I get it. This sounds like the bean counters may be a big part of the trouble. That's what happened at Harley-Davidson.

But (I know I beat this to death) having been a huge PV supporter for most of my musician life I am massively disappointed with them. Hartkes are MIC and not much above PV's price point, and for me, have been completely reliable. Rarely read anything here about new Hartke gear breaking except the TX600s teething issues. Statistically ... it's gonna happen to everyone, even Mesa. But the crap show that has been Peavey lately is totally different. As a Peavey fan I would gladly pay 20% more for Peavey products with better reliability.

But that's likely not gonna happen so they are no longer on my radar, even though I absolutely LOVED the MiniMega. And since Hartke/Samson customer service is evidently one or two guys working from home they may be dropping off, too. If my 800 Pro proves too expensive to repair it looks like Mesa or Genz will be the next purchase. And I have no problem believing a Magellan 800 or Mesa D800 will outlast me. And that's a shame. Peavey was an institution. Everyone knew what they stood for. Even non-players knew Peaveys were 'good stuff'. Now they're a cautionary tale.

 

[fhm555]

I'm so old and have had so many head injuries from fights and bike wrecks that my memory is shot. When Andy was talking about bathtub curves I couldn't recall the significance, and I was a QA Engineer with the CQE certification. But I do seem to remember companies (way) down south doing something similar with gym equipment and bicycles, etc.

So are we saying that the problem with Peavey's well-known reliability demise of late is most likely the result of (and I'm generalizing) lower-spec'd parts, done in order to save money? Is it possible they also reduce testing time during prototype phase, or reduce the number of units they test before shipping? Where would a company like that start cutting corners to save money? Maybe they moved everything to the factory Behringer/TC uses?

It all costs money. I get it. This sounds like the bean counters may be a big part of the trouble. That's what happened at Harley-Davidson.

But (I know I beat this to death) having been a huge PV supporter for most of my musician life I am massively disappointed with them. Hartkes are MIC and not much above PV's price point, and for me, have been completely reliable. Rarely read anything here about new Hartke gear breaking except the TX600s teething issues. Statistically ... it's gonna happen to everyone, even Mesa. But the crap show that has been Peavey lately is totally different. As a Peavey fan I would gladly pay 20% more for Peavey products with better reliability.

But that's likely not gonna happen so they are no longer on my radar, even though I absolutely LOVED the MiniMega. And since Hartke/Samson customer service is evidently one or two guys working from home they may be dropping off, too. If my 800 Pro proves too expensive to repair it looks like Mesa or Genz will be the next purchase. And I have no problem believing a Magellan 800 or Mesa D800 will outlast me. And that's a shame. Peavey was an institution. Everyone knew what they stood for. Even non-players knew Peaveys were 'good stuff'. Now they're a cautionary tale.

I’m not sure what happened to Peavey. I've seen plenty of brand names synonymous with quality get sold to a conglomerate who began producing junk and slapping on a name with a rep for quality, but I can’t recall any who basically went from a trusted brand to an iffy gamble while retaining the same people at the wheel. If I had to guess i’d say it was a classic case of if you can’t beat em, join em, and they got some bad advice on how to go about that. There is also the fact that when they shut down in Mississippi, a lot of their loyal customers jumped ship because let’s face it, their loyal base was overwhelmingly believers in “America first”. I know quite a few people who felt that way who not only walked away but sold all their US made Peavey gear to boot.
I tried an imported Peavey bass amp and it was decent but the cooling fan was noisy as hell and ran constantly when it was switched on. No problem at stage volume but annoying to no end when sitting around at home working out new music. To be fair, i also got an imported 6 channel mixer because it was affordable and had a USB input before that feature became common and it did everything I wanted it to do with no complaints, and still does.
As for a specific reason for their decline? I don’t really have any idea why they chose to go from the world’s largest producer of instrument amps and PA gear to a bad joke. Or cautionary business school tale.

 

[agedhorse]

The only way to know why a price of gear has systemic problems is through a costly forensic analysis of representative samples along with a bunch of follow-up calculations.

 

[frankie5string]

As for a specific reason for their decline? I don’t really have any idea why they chose to go from the world’s largest producer of instrument amps and PA gear to a bad joke. Or cautionary business school tale.

Peavey was never the worlds largest producer of PA gear and Instrument amps. Pretty sure Fender out-produces them for guitars and amps, and likely JBL is the worlds largest PA system producer.
Peavey is/was one of the largest producers of value-priced gear for musicians.

Peavey was never out to be an exotic brand. It was supposed to be the best quality for a lower price. They are not competing in same space as companies like Mesa. I suspect they found it was too hard to keep prices down unless they went offshore. That aside, they still design and produce quality products. The problem with the Internet is that far more people bandwagon to complain about a problem than they do to praise a product. Often most of the complainers don't even have the product being complained about.

Hartley likes to joke that changing their logo in the 80s and 90s to that pink triangle with the wave through it did more to nearly kill them than any series of products.