Amp to Compete with a Big Band

[jonners98]

Hi all - I recently secured a new gig with a 20-piece big band (14 horns), and I need to upgrade my amp for this.

At the moment, I have a 10-year old Fender Rumble 30 which has been fine for 4-piece rehearsals and home use, and thankfully most of my work has been studio-based.

What I need now is something that can compete with the big band setup in a rehearsal context (basically something that can be heard in a small rehearsal space), to be DI'd to the front of house in gig scenarios and used as a monitor.

What power/size/model recommendations do you have? I'm really on quite a budget (350gbp), so used is definitely fine, and portability is a big plus. I'm just not sure whether offerings like the Peavey Max 208 are worth it.

 

[NG51]

I've played a GK MB-112 with a big band, and it was great. easily handled rehearsal, and FOH for concerts. A pro player I know recommended a 112 with no horn, and the GK was the one I could use. It even worked fine at a concert when the house system went down.

 

[jonners98]

I've played a GK MB-112 with a big band, and it was great. easily handled rehearsal, and FOH for concerts. A pro player I know recommended a 112 with no horn, and the GK was the one I could use. It even worked fine at a concert when the house system went down.

Much appreciated! The MB-112 is out of my price range by around 100 gbp, but it's good to know that a 200w 1x12 can be suitable, gives me much more faith in similar powered/sized models

 

[Wasnex]

Are you playing upright or electric? Upright tends to benefit from more flexible and powerful tone controls and also from an amp that has more of a flat and extended response (less of a baked in tone).

It's not possible to simply say how many watts you need. Long ago I used Yamaha B100 combo. The was a large and heavy 100W combo amps with a 15" speaker. My guess is the speaker was extremely efficient as it was plenty loud for a university big band.

I did most of my professional career with about 250W and a good efficient 210. The last cab I used was an Eden D210XLT, which is considered old and heavy now but at the time sort of a top of the line standard. The D210XLT has a very high sensitivity rating and I always felt like I had more headroom than I needed. I wasn't totally thrilled with the way the cab was voiced in the upper mids but I was able to make it work.

I also used a GK 700RB/112 combo which made 225W with the internal 12" speaker. This rig sounded great with upright bass, but did not have a lot of headroom because of the low sensitivity rating of the cab. I could hear fine, but I felt I was at the amps limit. Of course I could have added an extension cab and eliminated that problem, but then you have the hassle of dealing with two cabs. I think the Eden cab sounded better with bass guitar.

 

[Wasnex]

Much appreciated! The MB-112 is out of my price range by around 100 gbp, but it's good to know that a 200w 1x12 can be suitable, gives me much more faith in similar powered/sized models

To get what you really need you may have to consider used.

I would be very surprised if 200W into a 112 gives a solid sense of headroom. Sure it will work, probably not well. The likely result is you will compensate for the lack of headroom by overplaying. So your hand will tend to wear out quicker.

 

[jonners98]

Are you playing upright or electric? Upright tends to benefit from more flexible and powerful tone controls and also from an amp that has more of a flat and extended response (less of a baked in tone).

It's not possible to simply say how many watts you need. Long ago I used Yamaha B100 combo. The was a large and heavy 100W combo amps with a 15" speaker. My guess is the speaker was extremely efficient as it was plenty loud for a university big band.

I did most of my professional career with about 250W and a good efficient 210. The last cab I used was an Eden D210XLT, which is considered old and heavy now but at the time sort of a top of the line standard. The D210XLT has a very high sensitivity rating and I always felt like I had more headroom than I needed. I wasn't totally thrilled with the way the cab was voiced in the upper mids but I was able to make it work.

I also used a GK 700RB/112 combo which made 225W with the internal 12" speaker. This rig sounded great with upright bass, but did not have a lot of headroom because of the low sensitivity rating of the cab. I could hear fine, but I felt I was at the amps limit. Of course I could have added an extension cab and eliminated that problem, but then you have the hassle of dealing with two cabs. I think the Eden cab sounded better with bass guitar.

Should have said, I'm playing electric, not upright. I may switch over to my EUB for certain gigs, but most of the band's gigs are functions that delve into more modern big-band and concert-band stuff, so the fretless electric is a better choice. I'm running it with flats and a passive p/j setup, so I've got a pretty flat and focused tone.

My Rumble 30 competes surprisingly well for the power (I rarely have to push the volume past 1 o'clock to compete with a drummer in rehearsal) but I know I'll need more in this scenario, and I can't tell if my Rumble 30 is just insanely loud for the size.

 

[Wasnex]

Should have said, I'm playing electric, not upright. I may switch over to my EUB for certain gigs, but most of the band's gigs are functions that delve into more modern big-band and concert-band stuff, so the fretless electric is a better choice. I'm running it with flats and a passive p/j setup, so I've got a pretty flat and focused tone.

My Rumble 30 competes surprisingly well for the power (I rarely have to push the volume past 1 o'clock to compete with a drummer in rehearsal) but I know I'll need more in this scenario, and I can't tell if my Rumble 30 is just insanely loud for the size.

That's very helpful info. A 200W 112 may actually be plenty then given your needs. The best way to make an informed decision is if you can try the amp you are considering and compare it directly to what you have.

In general there is this idea we call Hoffmans Iron Law that you should be aware of. Basically you have three parameters that you trade against each other: 1. compact size, 2. plays low, 3 high efficiency. The idea is you can only get 2 of the 3 at one time. Of course if you are willing to spend large sums of money, you can make some progress, but the law does pretty much hold true.

My point is you need to identify the qualities that are important to you and then consider which of the qualities are in competition with one another. Chances are you will need to prioritize in order to stay within your budget.

Something to consider. Over the last decade or so, the bass market has focused largely on reducing size and weight. So there is literally tons of very high quality used gear on the used market that can be had for practically pennies on the dollar (not sure if you would say pennies on the pound colloquially). Just a few years ago some of these bargains would have been considered top of the line touring gear. So if lightweight is not your top priority, take a look at your local used market. You may be able to find an incredible bargain on mint condition gear that is way better than anything you buy new, it will just weigh a bit more than modern gear.

 

[jonners98]

That's very helpful info. A 200W 112 may actually be plenty then given your needs. The best way to make an informed decision is if you can try the amp you are considering and compare it directly to what you have.

In general there is this idea we call Hoffmans Iron Law that you should be aware of. Basically you have three parameters that you trade against each other: 1. compact size, 2. plays low, 3 high efficiency. The idea is you can only get 2 of the 3 at one time. Of course if you are willing to spend large sums of money, you can make some progress, but the law does pretty much hold true.

My point is you need to identify the qualities that are important to you and then consider which of the qualities are in competition with one another. Chances are you will need to prioritize in order to stay within your budget.

Something to consider. Over the last decade or so, the bass market has focused largely on reducing size and weight. So there is literally tons of very high quality used gear on the used market that can be had for practically pennies on the dollar (not sure if you would say pennies on the pound colloquially). Just a few years ago some of these bargains would have been considered top of the line touring gear. So if lightweight is not your top priority, take a look at your local used market. You may be able to find an incredible bargain on mint condition gear that is way better than anything you buy new, it will just weigh a bit more than modern gear.

Much appreciated. I've certainly seen some very well-priced amps and cabs pop up before, and as you say they seem to be at a fraction of the price one may expect purely because of the age and the implications that has on weight/size.

I wouldn't say I'm super precious about size/weight, but it is a factor to some extent. I don't want to lug something around that is 5x heavier than it could be, unless it is my only workable solution for the volume I need. Also, it needs to sit discreetly in my music room at home, so a vertical stacked 2x10 would be preferable to a 1x15 (for example) simply because of the space I have to occupy.

I've spied the Ashdown MAG series - the C115-300 and the C210, both 300W combos, one with a 2x10 and one with a 1x15 - and they're like 300gbp. Seems like very good value for what its offering.

 

[Wasnex]

I've spied the Ashdown MAG series - the C115-300 and the C210, both 300W combos, one with a 2x10 and one with a 1x15 - and they're like 300gbp. Seems like very good value for what its offering.

Give em spin and see what you think .

I own a couple of big Ashdown tube amps and years ago I played through one of the big EVO heads a few times. Fabulous sounding amps but in my experience the tone controls tend to be a bit quirky on the models I own and have tried.

 

[JimmyM]

I've done big band gigs with similar. When you have PA and the band doesn't want the instruments to be too loud, it's usually enough. Of course that varies from band to band, but you don't need some sort of massive rig for gigs like that.

 

[chris_b]

IMO you need headroom for a good clean sound. I use an Aguilar, but I'd suggest a 500 watt amp of your choice through a Barefaced Super Compact. This cab has the clarity and definition to let you be heard through any horn-heavy mix, and will sound great at a whisper during the sensitive moments.

 

[Steve Dallman]

Budget wise, look at the Rumble 100 or 200. Lightweight and sound good. If you can swing it, the 500 would do anything you need. Still lightweight.

 

[Manticore]

I play in a 10-piece band with horns regularly. For rehearsals, I tend to use an Ashdown CTM30 through a pair of SWR Hank Jr. cabs; this small, low-powered setup is plenty for rehearsals. (I have a CTM300 and ABM810, but rarely use it; it's fun, occasionally, but it's over-kill for virtually all applications!) On stage I almost always plug into a Kemper and go straight to the board for best results. With a band this large, keeping stage volume down really helps in hearing everything going on.

 

[Nephilymbass]

I own a 410 and 15 that i pair with a Mesa d800. The 410 will almost always be just right. These days even metal bands aren’t as loud. Guitar rigs have shrunk. Sound-guys actually tell bands to turn down. My 15 alone is plenty loud enough for certain situations. For jazz/big band type gigs and acoustic rock style gigs the 15 works just fine. I very rarely use both cabs at the same time. Mainly only if it’s a outdoor festival type gig which I only play like once every year or two. But I do regularly use the 115 as a stand for the 410. By that I’ll mean I’ll bring both and stack them but only actually hook up the 410. I do that on shallow stages in particular just to get the sound closer to my head, because if I’m standing directly in front of them on the floor the sound goes by my legs. Or in some situations if the bass isn’t going through a PA at all.

 

[Snarf]

Give em spin and see what you think .

I own a couple of big Ashdown tube amps and years ago I played through one of the big EVO heads a few times. Fabulous sounding amps but in my experience the tone controls tend to be a bit quirky on the models I own and have tried.

I'll bet a jazz group might be the ONLY situation where that Ashdown sound could work. Every time I've seen an Ashdown at a venue or rehearsal studio, it's been a big letdown. But I was always doing top 40 through them.

 

[Wasnex]

I'll bet a jazz group might be the ONLY situation where that Ashdown sound could work. Every time I've seen an Ashdown at a venue or rehearsal studio, it's been a big letdown. But I was always doing top 40 through them.

My Small Block 427 sounds drastically different than my CTM300, and the big EVO head I played through was a third totally different flavor. Neither would be my first choice for big band. That doesn't mean someone else will not like one of them. That's why I suggest taking amps for a test drive.

 

[BassFalcon]

Way back in the day I played my freshman year in the 19-piece college big band with a Hartke 140 watt 115. Blew it up 3 times because it was constantly cranked. Literal smoke and flashes, but it was able to be repaired every time. So that clearly wasn’t enough rig. After that I got a Mesa M-Pulse 360 and a fender bassman 410 that was more than enough rig, even for the big auditoriums and theaters, and the semi parametric EQ was nice to notch out double bass feedback.. I also picked up an Acme 110 and believe it or not that was able to do the trick just fine with the Mesa head in the big band, but that one saw a lot more combo work, as a 410 is a bit much to carry for combo work. More is always better, but if I were in your shoes I’d feel real comfortable with a 112 and an honest 200-300 watts.

 

[Manticore]

Fabulous sounding amps but in my experience the tone controls tend to be a bit quirky on the models I own and have tried.

I concur. The tone controls are interactive and rather "Quirky." Once you grok onto how they work together it's fairly easy to find what's on offer.

But I was always doing top 40 through them.

I wouldn't use a CTM amp for top 40 either. They're rather dark overall for that application.

 

[cratz2]

With both in stock form, the Rumble 200 is a pretty big upgrade over the Rumble 100. And you can add another if/when needed on down the road with the 200.

If you found a great deal on a 100, a speaker upgrade goes quite a ways, making it about twice as loud and better sound, but it's still only 100 watts and can't power another van.

 

[byacey]

I've done big band gigs with similar. When you have PA and the band doesn't want the instruments to be too loud, it's usually enough. Of course that varies from band to band, but you don't need some sort of massive rig for gigs like that.

That's been my experience too, for some of the traditional big bands I've ran sound production for. Guy Lombardo's Orchestra used an Ampeg upright bass plugged into a small amp. probably 50W tops. That was in about 1986, so I don't remember the details. Mart Kenny's bassist used a bass violin with a piezo bridge pickup, and I believe he was using a Roland cube for an amp. In the big band era, the bass was pretty much acoustic, being somewhat subdued by today's standards.

I remember at our first gig Mart discussing the sound with me before the event, telling me that all I needed was some horn section mics on woodwinds and brass, and the soloists would move in closer to the mic as required. They essentially mixed themselves acoustically. in addition to the sections, I had overheads on the drum kit, piano mic, vocal mic, and guitar and bass mic'ed as well.

With a bit of PA support, the bass could be heard well right to the back of the hall; The dance floor was 6400 sq feet, and it was about 250 feet to the back with about 1000 people in the room, soaking up sound.