Ampeg PF500/350, part 4

[Frankjohnson]

+1 What are the chances of getting 4 faulty amps? I'm wondering if the same problems guys are having with multiple amps could be attributed to operator error.

Seems like a fair thought -
What do you think the operator error might be?

Here are situational paramaters of my situation:
cabinets used are all in working order -
8 ohm 1-15 cab - Older Crate rear ported with Kappa Pro 15
4 ohm 1-12 cab - DeltaLF 12 (avatar)
4 ohm 4-12 cab - Neo 10s (Avatar)

Speaker Cables all in good condition - order (2 are Spkn -spkn 12 ga, others are 14 ga - 1/4-1/4 or 1/4 -spkn)

compression usually off - but anywhere from off to 1:00

gain - anywhere from 11-2:00

Bass - noon - 2:00
Mids noon - 2:00
mid freq - usually 1 or 2
highs 10-1:00
volume - 10-2 or 3:00 dependant on room, situation, and gain

NO effects in front of rig

nothing in the effects loop

use a clip on tuner - so thats not in the chain

Power cables are all good quality heavy duty - working order

Basses are all in good condition - mostly passive - but I do use a couple of active ones on occasion which all had the batteries changed as part of truobleshooting on this issue

Fender -
RW Jazz
Am Jazz Deluxe
Jag
Am P Bass Dlx
Std jazz
P Bass Jr

SX P/J rewired with SD QP P Pup/Lace Sensor Bridge pup

NEVER have this issue with Genz Shuttle 6.0

Never had this issue with Tech 21 Sansamp RBI/QSC Plx 1602 (Used about 7-8 years now)

Never had this issue with Peavey T Max

Never had this issue with SWR 550X

Never Had this issue with AMpeg B2Re



I hope this helps - and am open to your thoughts
thanks

 

[Truktek2]

Seems like a fair thought -
What do you think the operator error might be?

Here are situational paramaters of my situation:
cabinets used are all in working order -
8 ohm 1-15 cab - Older Crate rear ported with Kappa Pro 15
4 ohm 1-12 cab - DeltaLF 12 (avatar)
4 ohm 4-12 cab - Neo 10s (Avatar)

Speaker Cables all in good condition - order (2 are Spkn -spkn 12 ga, others are 14 ga - 1/4-1/4 or 1/4 -spkn)

compression usually off - but anywhere from off to 1:00

gain - anywhere from 11-2:00

Bass - noon - 2:00
Mids noon - 2:00
mid freq - usually 1 or 2
highs 10-1:00
volume - 10-2 or 3:00 dependant on room, situation, and gain

NO effects in front of rig

nothing in the effects loop

use a clip on tuner - so thats not in the chain

Power cables are all good quality heavy duty - working order

Basses are all in good condition - mostly passive - but I do use a couple of active ones on occasion which all had the batteries changed as part of truobleshooting on this issue

Fender -
RW Jazz
Am Jazz Deluxe
Jag
Am P Bass Dlx
Std jazz
P Bass Jr

SX P/J rewired with SD QP P Pup/Lace Sensor Bridge pup

NEVER have this issue with Genz Shuttle 6.0

Never had this issue with Tech 21 Sansamp RBI/QSC Plx 1602 (Used about 7-8 years now)

Never had this issue with Peavey T Max

Never had this issue with SWR 550X

Never Had this issue with AMpeg B2Re

I hope this helps - and am open to your thoughts
thanks

I had just finished suggesting it could be the cab when you posted that, but seeing as you tried multliple cabs it seems unlikely. I don't know, maybe they just don't play nice with different manufacturers? It just seems odd, to me anyway, that any one person can be so unlucky as to keep getting faulty amps. Either way I hope some figures it out, as I'd like to know as well.

 

[ryanfenderbass]

Now I'm confused. I thought I was the guy getting "flamed" for "user error." Truktek, are you having the same issues I am?

Well, to keep up with the conversation, I am using duel Ampeg PF115 cabs (you know, the cabs the amp is designed for) with relatively new, tested speaker cables.

My main bass is a passive P bass with flats, my other is a passive J with rounds. I use eq setting almost identical to Truktek. I use a SanAmp VT in the front about 25% of the time, but the cut-outs happened while it was off.

Here's the main point I am trying to emphasize, things were going FINE for 3-4 months on my 3rd amp, now out of nowhere (didn't change anything in my chain), it's cutting out again. Like I said, this leads me to believe that something "breaks" when a cut-out first occurs. Almost like it's a ticking time bomb.

All I need to figure out is if this is an issue that can be fixed either by Ampeg or me. I love the look, sound, and storability of this amp, but if she's a lost cause, I probably do see the 500W Bass Terror in my future (and the guitard wins).

 

[Frankjohnson]

Here's the main point I am trying to emphasize, things were going FINE for 3-4 months on my 3rd amp, now out of nowhere (didn't change anything in my chain), it's cutting out again. Like I said, this leads me to believe that something "breaks" when a cut-out first occurs. Almost like it's a ticking time bomb.

All I need to figure out is if this is an issue that can be fixed either by Ampeg or me. I love the look, sound, and storability of this amp, but if she's a lost cause, I probably do see the 500W Bass Terror in my future (and the guitard wins).

THAT is a solid thought. Mine was Spot on solid - exactly what I wanted - sound and performance wise the first ten months.

When the repalcement board came (main power baord I was told) it did not initially work - a component needed re soldered, as it was damaged on reciept. ( I was told). I commented when I finally got it back that the voice seemed "different" and I couldn't quite put my finger on it. the best I could come up with was that the front end gain seemed weaker - and I couldn't seem to get the same push or grind.

Ampeg reps told me maybe I was "square waving it" and shouldn't push it that hard. This was with the PF2-10 cab - and I was playing it at home at gig level (pre at about 1:00 - vol at about 2-3:00) It started to cut out more easily, more frequently, but I took it to the blues jam I play at and it cut out early at lower volume maybe 4-5 times - so I goosed it to higher volume, to see what it did (had the Genz in the Car) - and it never cut out again during the night - go figure.

I jsut can't have that unreliability at a gig. no rhyme or reason to it.

I do agree that maybe once something "goes" it is more likely that it will continue to cut out more easily and often - but of course I am not an electronics engineer. Just a hack end user that wants his crap to work pretty reliantly.

I can tell you that the PF 2-10, and two avatar cabs all had the cut out issues, with ALL 4 cables, and that the Jazz/Jag and P DLX basses all were being played during some episode of cut out.

The Crate cab, SX P /J, and fender P-Jrwere not used during any of the cutouts, or troubleshooting - I shouldn't have included them - I just listed them as part of what I use/have used prior to the issues, as routine gig gear.

 

[ddbassGA]

I didn't detect anyone being flamed. I'm hoping we all want to explore what the problem is with these heads. I'm a PF500 user with 2 PF115E cabs. I haven't had a problem with mine (so far gigging with only 1 of the cabs), but I am very interested in keeping up with those who have had problems, their solutions with Ampeg, and troubleshooting what may be causing the problems. I also hope that Ampeg is keeping up with this thread (and others) and paying attention.

 

[Frankjohnson]

Not sure about the flaming either, and also wanted to get as much out there as I could. I apologize that my opinion is a little cyniacal - but I am hoping that will change with the new one. I think it would have helped if they had replaced it initally, instead of going the route of board change out. that said, I also think it is valuable to know that ths is waht was done, and there were still issues.

I also had mentioned that the tech who worked on it said that there appeared to be a slight variation from the orginal board, but others reported that Ampeg say that there is no variation. the tech on my end could be wrong. But.....its not difficut to see "extra parts" when they are side by side - which is what he said he had seen.

I would just like to see the issues identified, fixed and get back to work.

That said, I will not keep the new one if it fails in any manner. If it has to be replaced, the new replacement will go up for sale NIB - unopened box. If it performs as it should - I will use it till the cows come home!

 

[GregT]

I was also on the phone with Loud Technologies today. Two reasons.

First off, I was ordering two handles to match the handles on my PF115. I was so impressed with Kevin in parts. He was extremely helpful. It was my first experience with Loud and a great one.

Next I spoke with Gilbert who was in more of a technical support position and I asked him a question that comes up on Talkbass. I asked him if anything had been done to the PF500 over the last few years to help with the problems they had had with a few units in the beginning. I explained that I was a member of TalkBass and that I would post their answer. He asked that I email him and he would send my question to someone higher. Here is the email I sent to him:

"Gilbert,

I recently spoke with you on the phone. I am a member of TalkBass and a question comes up repeatedly. I am looking for a response that I can post for everyone. The question is:

When the PF500 came out it seemed to have some stability issues with a few units. It appears that something may have been done to make more current runs less apt to go into a fault mode or cut out. Has anything been changed over the few years they have been being produced? One person on TalkBass said some diodes have been changed and another said there have been no revisions. I am going right to the source for the correct answer.

TalkBass is a forum that a lot of good folks use to help each other with questions and answers. I am looking for a valid official answer from Loud Technologies that I can post. I have two PF500/PF115HE combinations and one B-100R. My amps have no issues whatsoever.

I am impressed with the staff at Loud. Kevin Kent in parts was very helpful when I ordered two handles today. Real people who answer the phone give a great feeling about having an Ampeg (or 3).

Thank you,
Greg"

I will post their response when I get it.

Well, it has been about two weeks so I thought I'd post their response:

"___________"

In their defense, they probably didn't answer such a straight forward qusetion with an honest answer because of the ramifications of either possible answer.

The good news is my handles are on their way. My amps are still performing nicely. If one of mine were ever to fail, I am not so forgiving of my equipment. I would get a replacement and sell it new in box and sell the other one as well. I would keep the cabinets though and mount something like one the new GK class D heads. However, I am expecting no failure and if things go as planned, I will be using my two PF500/PF115 amps for the rest of my days. How's that for optimism?

 

[Truktek2]

Truktek, are you having the same issues

No. Ive had my amp for about 3 months without a glitch, so I figured I was out of the woods, but then I read someone didn't start having problems until his 10th month. That's not very comforting and I will be watching this thread to see what develops. I would hate to have to get rid of it since it's such an awesome amp. Nothing on the market compares to it in terms of size,price weight and tone. IMO. I wouldn't even know what to replace it with if I had to.

 

[Frankjohnson]

truktek2
I felt the same way - it has THE voice!

Fingers crossed for the new one - arrives tomorrow - have a wed night jam - and dopple-gigger this weekend! the Genz is definately different - but also a great sounding amp.

I intend to start out with the Apmeg - lets see what I finish with !

 

[Truktek2]

truktek2
I felt the same way - it has THE voice!

Fingers crossed for the new one - arrives tomorrow - have a wed night jam - and dopple-gigger this weekend! the Genz is definately different - but also a great sounding amp.

I intend to start out with the Apmeg - lets see what I finish with !

Good Luck!

 

[JimmyM]

No. Ive had my amp for about 3 months without a glitch, so I figured I was out of the woods, but then I read someone didn't start having problems until his 10th month. That's not very comforting and I will be watching this thread to see what develops. I would hate to have to get rid of it since it's such an awesome amp. Nothing on the market compares to it in terms of size,price weight and tone. IMO. I wouldn't even know what to replace it with if I had to.

I recommend an SVT

Sorry you had the cutout, bro. I know it doesn't help you on Friday night at 10:00, but Ampeg CS is always there to help as good as they can.

 

[kobass]

My replacement is due tomorrow. I have a gig on Sunday.




I am going to beat the living crap out of that head to see if it cuts out!

 

[John D]

Now I'm confused. I thought I was the guy getting "flamed" for "user error." Truktek, are you having the same issues I am?

Well, to keep up with the conversation, I am using duel Ampeg PF115 cabs (you know, the cabs the amp is designed for) with relatively new, tested speaker cables.

My main bass is a passive P bass with flats, my other is a passive J with rounds. I use eq setting almost identical to Truktek. I use a SanAmp VT in the front about 25% of the time, but the cut-outs happened while it was off.

Here's the main point I am trying to emphasize, things were going FINE for 3-4 months on my 3rd amp, now out of nowhere (didn't change anything in my chain), it's cutting out again. Like I said, this leads me to believe that something "breaks" when a cut-out first occurs. Almost like it's a ticking time bomb.

All I need to figure out is if this is an issue that can be fixed either by Ampeg or me. I love the look, sound, and storability of this amp, but if she's a lost cause, I probably do see the 500W Bass Terror in my future (and the guitard wins).

Sorry if anyone misunderstood my statement. I did not intend to flame anyone. I simply stated that perhaps you were asking too much from the amp. You did state that you were slapping the bass. Slapping sometimes generates huge transient power spikes. Maybe this is the issue, or maybe not. It seems as if you have made a very reasonable effort to work this issue out with Ampeg. If you are still dissatisfied, maybe it is time to move on to something more to your liking. I know I would have by now.

One additional thought: Since the amp worked well for you for several months, is it possible that you and the guitar player have unknowingly engaged in a volume war? Is he actually playing his amp louder now, causing you to play louder? Without changing the amp settings, you may actually be hitting the strings much harder than you were in the beginning, without realizing that you are doing anything different.

 

[Truktek2]

I recommend an SVT

Sorry you had the cutout, bro. I know it doesn't help you on Friday night at 10:00, but Ampeg CS is always there to help as good as they can.

Didn't cut out yet..but patiently waiting

 

[Frankjohnson]

One additional thought: Since the amp worked well for you for several months, is it possible that you and the guitar player have unknowingly engaged in a volume war? Is he actually playing his amp louder now, causing you to play louder? Without changing the amp settings, you may actually be hitting the strings much harder than you were in the beginning, without realizing that you are doing anything different.

Not very likely that this is the deal - at least on my end........

 

[ryanfenderbass]

First off, I meant "flame" in jest. But flaming is no laughing matter!

Anyway, maybe I was slightly offended by the whole "user error" thing as I have OCD tendencies when it comes to my bass gear. I am a dynamic player, but by no means am I driving this amp even close to her limits.

Simply put, a 500 watt amp going into 2 15" cabs should have more than enough headroom to not have these issues.

I've driven it harder at gigs without any issues. Now that the cutting out has reared its ugly head after these months, I theorize that it will keep coming back until I get it replaced. I cannot trust this amp until Ampeg makes a permanent modification. This it too bad because the PF500 is the best sounding, most innovative amp I have ever owned

I think I'm going to pick up a Bass Terror as a backup amp (I've seem them on sale for good prices). If I like it better than the PF500, I may sell my PF500 closed box as well.

 

[ryanfenderbass]

Not very likely that this is the deal - at least on my end........

Nope. And volume is not the issue. I am not pushing this amp. The cutting out has also occurred while solo noodling.

 

[John D]

Nope. And volume is not the issue. I am not pushing this amp. The cutting out has also occurred why solo noodling.

I think we would all like to see a resolution to this issue. The thing that I think is puzzling to most of us is that so many people are having no problems at all, while the people who are having problems have the same problems with multiple amps.

I opted for the PF350, since I only use it at home and I don't need the extra power. So far, it has not given me any problems at all except that I don't like the limiter. When I engage the limiter, every time the peak light comes on, the amp makes a harsh "farting" sound, for lack of a better term. When this happens, I don't notice any loss of power; I only hear the farting sound. The farting sound is definitely coming from the amp, and not the speakers, because if I switch the limiter off, the volume stays up, but the farting goes away. Could this be the same issue that people are calling "cutting out"? If it is the problem others are having, I saw this as nothing more than the limiter doing its job, although in my opinion, not very well. Ampeg could have done a much better job with the limiter, IMO. That's why I no longer use the limiter.

FWIW, I am running the amp into a SVT410HE, which is an 8-ohm cabinet. Therefore, I have never run it to full power. If someone wants to give me another SVT410HE to try it with, I'll gladly take it. Until then, I hope the people who are having issues will keep pushing Ampeg for an answer. I think I would have a hard time buying a PF500, until they come up with a plausible reason for these apparent failures.

 

[60bass]

Simply put, a 500 watt amp going into 2 15" cabs should have more than enough headroom to not have these issues.

Agree 100%! In fact I've played with way less than 500 watts through 2-15's without issues. So far my 500 which I bought early on hasn't cut out at all. However that being said most of the play time has been at 8 ohms through one of my Hartke HX 115's with an 08 Fender P. I've hammered it good with one cab and no problems. Only ran it with both cabs once or twice here at home very loud for about 20 minutes but also no problems. I set the gain till the clip light blinks when I really dig in and little if any compression cause I'm not a fan of compression.

Keeping my fingers crossed!

 

[60bass]

I opted for the PF350, since I only use it at home and I don't need the extra power. So far, it has not given me any problems at all except that I don't like the limiter. When I engage the limiter, every time the peak light comes on, the amp makes a harsh "farting" sound, for lack of a better term. When this happens, I don't notice any loss of power; I only hear the farting sound. The farting sound is definitely coming from the amp, and not the speakers, because if I switch the limiter off, the volume stays up, but the farting goes away. Could this be the same issue that people are calling "cutting out"? If it is the problem others are having, I saw this as nothing more than the limiter doing its job, although in my opinion, not very well. Ampeg could have done a much better job with the limiter, IMO. That's why I no longer use the limiter.

I've mentioned in earlier threads that I thought the cutting out issues were caused by the limiter circuit in the heads. Some owner's say the preamp continues to work fine through another poweramp even if the amp cuts out. That points directly to the power amp circuit being the culprit, at least IMO. My guess and I'm no tech, is that the limiter kicks in way to hard and kills the output. I wonder about whether the 500 is being strained to deliver that wattage "continuously" into a 4 ohm load? Seems those running 4 ohm loads are having the most problems regardless of cab or bass type. Also this is an issue that's been reported happening going all the way back to the very first thread. Obviously it's an issue with some of these amps. Ampeg has been good with replacements but the issue remains. These amps have been out long enough that any bugs should have been fixed by now. When your 500 cuts out and you're backup or prior amps work fine with the same cabs and basses, well that pretty much tells you where the problem is.

So far Mine's fine but if it cuts out I'm done. There are lots of amps out there so i can get another brand.

I'm not gigging out regularly anymore but still gigging a few times every other month or so. One thing playing bass for over 35 years has taught me is NEVER play out with gear I can't trust. Whether it's 6 nights a week or 6 nights a year, when I hit the power switch I need to trust that whatever it's connected to is going to work.

I don't blame anyone who's having issues for reporting them here, being frustrated, or moving to another brand.

Hey, you gotta be happy and have fun playing, not worrying about if your amp is going to crap out or not.