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Ampeg SVT-7 Pro TEST

You'd think that would be fine as the voltage would double/halve with the switch. More interesting is a 240V scenario in Australia, which aparently can spike to 270.

If an amps output varies so widely with small variations in line voltage, surely this would call into question the usefulness of testing and publishing such a specific rating in the first place. I haven't read the review in detail but I assume line voltage for the BGM test is accurately regulated.

Tom - do you guys test a range of voltages to see how the amp performs or do you just set it to 110V and run that?

Shouldn't matter.

A. Line voltage shouldn't vary that much.

B. The amps power supply should be over-engineered enough to easily deal with it.

C. If you want a "real-life" test, go plug it in some random wall sockets and test it. That's exactly what the players who play it will be doing.
 
projectMalamute said:
Doesn't matter.

A bass amp shouldn't require lab precision power regulation to function at better than 75% of it's spec.

Being robust and usable under a wide variety of real world conditions is part of what makes something a quality amp.

Conventional amps had unregulated power supplies. If the line voltage sagged to 80%, the output power would sag to 64%, give or take.

The SVT7 probably reaches a higher fraction of its rated power when plugged into iffy club wiring, because it has a regulated supply and is more efficient than class AB. But it also has to protect itself against over current if the line voltage gets too low.
 
If an amps output varies so widely with small variations in line voltage, surely this would call into question the usefulness of testing and publishing such a specific rating in the first place. I haven't read the review in detail but I assume line voltage for the BGM test is accurately regulated.

With old school tube amps with "linear" supplies - output will vary pretty linearly with line voltage in both directions.

Even worse for old school SS with unregulated dual rails.
 
Hey Jon,



Anyway, don't know if you all saw Jerrold Tiers' lengthy technical post about the SVT 7 Pro in the other thread. If anyone has an axe to grind with LOUD, it's Jerrold, and he pretty much cleared them of any shenanigans with the 7 Pro. Apparently the rev C version now has a limiter that reacts to different voltage conditions and limits the output lower if it thinks it needs to and doesn't if it doesn't. Then he said tekdiver's method was an equally valid if quick-and-dirty way to measure output. This could easily explain why BGM and tekdiver got different results, and all I could think was, "That's a darn good safety feature that sure beats cutting out in the middle of the gig."

So not to get off on a personal tangent, but I will just say that I will always remember those of you who questioned my personal integrity over this matter, you know who you are and I know who you are, and I will ignore your posts forever, and you no longer exist in my world.

Jimmy my friend I know it is a wet load :) My question was if he is using the caloric method of power dissipation measurement? Wet loads can dissipate a higher amount of power than a dry load, but that does not tell the measurement method. :)
It was point of interest for me, I'm so over the whole missing wattage debate. This was opened as a technical discussion I believe? That is the only reason the question was asked. ;)
 
I haven't read the review in detail but I assume line voltage for the BGM test is accurately regulated.

Tom - do you guys test a range of voltages to see how the amp performs or do you just set it to 110V and run that?

Actually, we very much intentionally do not run our tests on a regulated AC line. My theory is that we don't gig on regulated lines, and I want our tests to be as representative as possible of what an amp will do on a gig. We do, however, use a dedicated line (with more than 120v on tap), and we do measure line voltage before, during, and after each test.
 
Actually, we very much intentionally do not run our tests on a regulated AC line. My theory is that we don't gig on regulated lines, and I want our tests to be as representative as possible of what an amp will do on a gig. We do, however, use a dedicated line (with more than 120v on tap), and we do measure line voltage before, during, and after each test.

Does this ^^^mean that your line voltage was more than 120VAC during the tests? Was it constant throughout the tests? Does Ampeg control their line voltage? How would too high line voltage affect the amp limiter? Sorry for the noob questions, but I did some limited audio testing for a mfg. company years ago, and these tests were always done under very controlled conditions, one of them being line voltage. I understand that you are trying to test the amp under real world conditions, but Ampeg most likely is testing to an industry standard? If they are using fixed parameters, while you are not, is it fair to expect any kind of correlation between the tests?
 
Does this ^^^mean that your line voltage was more than 120VAC during the tests? Was it constant throughout the tests? Does Ampeg control their line voltage? How would too high line voltage affect the amp limiter? Sorry for the noob questions, but I did some limited audio testing for a mfg. company years ago, and these tests were always done under very controlled conditions, one of them being line voltage. I understand that you are trying to test the amp under real world conditions, but Ampeg most likely is testing to an industry standard? If they are using fixed parameters, while you are not, is it fair to expect any kind of correlation between the tests?

I do not know what kind of AC source Ampeg might have used in their testing. Some manufacturers use regulated lines, some do not. I know one who is located extremely close to a power station, and they have super strong voltage at the outlet. These variables do matter, more so with some amp topologies than others.

I have not seen the measurements Tom made for the wall voltage during the test (we don't publish everything we measure), but my guess is that it did sag a little bit when the amp was being pushed the hardest. That's pretty typical. But if we see the line voltage sag during a test for no apparent reason, then we will retest when the voltage is stable.

120v is not "too high," btw.
 
I would have expected the voltage to have been 120 VAC. It seemed as if you were saying yours was higher. Incidentally, my questions are not meant to be a challenge to your testing methods. I'm just trying to learn something.

Gotcha. A few posts above, someone referenced 110v, so I wasn't sure if you were implying that 120v was too high. As I recall, Tom's dedicated line usually runs 122-123v.
 
As I recall, Tom's dedicated line usually runs 122-123v.

This was really my concern ^^^, since someone, Jerrold, I think, implied that the amp may protect itself from too high line voltages. I actually don't think those voltages are out of reason, and I would think they would yield power ratings similar to those Ampeg would get if they used regulated 120 VAC.
 
First, one person took me to task for comparing to a QSC amp...... saying it couldn't even make full power on a 120V line due to current.

The one I was referring to was a smaller one, either the 1202, possibly the 1602..... amps in the same category of power with the 7PRO.

They have power outputs that are compatible with the 120V line, more so in the case of the 1202, and especially with the high efficiency amp topology (class G or H, I forget which).

So they were/it was indeed relevant.............


Actually, we very much intentionally do not run our tests on a regulated AC line. My theory is that we don't gig on regulated lines, and I want our tests to be as representative as possible of what an amp will do on a gig. We do, however, use a dedicated line (with more than 120v on tap), and we do measure line voltage before, during, and after each test.

Well, I missed the test info, so I don't know what the line volts were DURING the test....

But, I will give you dollars to drachma that the manufacturer measured the power output WITH a known 120V line. I know I would, I always did, and have no problem with that.

If there is no standard, then there is no data, no numbers. There is only a "general impression", an "opinion" even.

The reason for using a 120V line is NOT because you expect users to have perfect power. No, it is so that there is some sort of standard which makes the test reproducible and get the same results in different labs.

I have no problem with measuring an amp with an unregulated line that may drop to whatever voltage..... But I DO have a very serious issue with taking the results as being "meaningful" in terms of the measured power vs manufacturer's claims . THEY ARE NOT.

Basically, the entire big mess is a bunch of hooey, very likely caused by BGM using a non-standard test method which came up (surprise) with a lower than claimed power output.

In effect, the test was bogus, at least in terms of "checking the claimed power".....because it was not done under conditions that can be compared to the test that backs up the manufacturer's claims.

As it happens, the 7PRO is particularly likely to draw down the line due to the voltage doubler which would have been used on 120V. That causes a somewhat more "peaky" current draw.

One might, with some justification, say that the "unregulated line" test fairly represents that worse draw combined with "typical" mains outlets...... But then nobody I know uses a sine wave when playing bass, so that more continuous draw "re-invalidates" the test, even if it was "short term"... ;)

Using adjusted/regulated line voltage isn't perfect, most amps don't have a "PFC front end" in the power supply and so don't draw a perfect sine wave at any voltage. They typically have a nasty peaky draw, and the actual power supply voltage drop can be very severe due to "clipping the peaks" of the line waveform despite the mains voltage still measuring 120Vrms..

Anyhow, from my recollection of looking at the schematic and checking a few interesting circuit features, I saw nothing glaring that would make me think it couldn't put out rated power. Certainly nothing that would obviously cut power by some large amount..... I recall checking the amp current limit and seeing that it was plenty good, for instance. Didn't look at the power supply as hard, don't recall seeing any form of a current limit in it.....but I am sure there must be one.

I guess am going to pretty much blame the test method for this whole mess, unless I come up with strong info that shows a reason not to....... even though I think the test is well-intentioned, no doubt done quite competently, and has some decent logic behind it. Just a bad combo of unit and test method.
 
Jimmy my friend I know it is a wet load :) My question was if he is using the caloric method of power dissipation measurement? Wet loads can dissipate a higher amount of power than a dry load, but that does not tell the measurement method. :)
It was point of interest for me, I'm so over the whole missing wattage debate. This was opened as a technical discussion I believe? That is the only reason the question was asked. ;)

It seems unlikely that the caloric method would be used. So long as the resistance of the load doesn't vary a lot as it heats up during the test, it's a resistor with known resistance. Thus, the power dissipation can be inferred from a voltage measurement.

"Power" is unfortunately a confusing figure of merit for amplifiers. In most cases it's a shorthand for "average power delivered to a resistive load as computed from the voltage waveform."
 
Dang JT it was me that went without coffee ;) So basically your saying BGM's test method was flawed and to treat the manufactures claims for power output like EPA mileage claims? Seeing as how most bassists making $100 a night are not going to buy a $1200 line voltage regulator to get the manufacture's power output data?
Yes they are just numbers, but some amps tested (Ampeg branded and others) have tested above the rated claim. Are those that tested above also flawed and to be ignored? Meaning the flawed test produced an anomaly no one should expect to match.
I fully understand imperial data and repeat-ability but to suggest that a real world test should be dismissed is what I am gleaning. Because this unit that looks good on paper didn't perform as expected. We should all know that is what can happen once it leaves the lab. :)
I'll be better after the flux fumes clear......so don't take this as a personal attack, just some questions. :)