Double Bass An Ehrlund blog, sort of

[engedi1]

Les,
There is a definite "point" on Ron Carter's sound that doesn't appeal to everyone. When he went into the studio for all of the CTI recordings he played on, it's my belief that they went overboard with the the way they emphasized his timbre in the mix. Hearing it in a live setting, it's doesn't have the over emphasized mid range that you hear on those recordings he made in the 1970's.

I also heard him with V.S.O.P (Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams, Wynton and Branford Marsalis.) In that very intense musical environment, he commanded the floor, and provided an anchor, that was the bed rock of that ensemble. That tone was required, in order for him to cut through the intensity of wall of sound created by the ensemble, and lock down the time, with Herbie and Tony. Just my observation. In a live concert it was balanced out by the other instruments.

Ric

I have a VSOP album and pulled it out just the other day. I hadn't heard it in years. I think it is a live album. The tempos are blistering on the bop tunes, "Well you Needn't" must be close to 300. What strikes me about his tone is that when he walking on the G and D string it is very midrangey and punchy-a sound I characterize with piezo pickups, especially old school ones. Of course when he hits a note on the G string it sustains and growls like nothing I have ever heard. Even then though, it comes through as midrange and there isn't a lot of fundamental. I think that bass trends have shifted alot with more and more players playing gut, and velvet strings and those who use spiros like myself or les are still going for a deeper, less sustaining tone.

 

[engedi1]

FYI, I do leave mine all the time. I have a 7/8 bass in a 3/4 bag, it just barely fits. The pickup has never threatened to come off. I used to take it off after every gig, but Ric Vice talked me out of doing that...

 

[drurb]

I think that bass trends have shifted alot with more and more players playing gut, and velvet strings and those who use spiros like myself or les are still going for a deeper, less sustaining tone.

I think they've shifted back, then. I call it "old school" and its the DB sound I've loved for decades.

 

[drurb]

Great thread Les, thanks for such a comprehensive review.

Do you leave the Ehurland attached all the time? Do you think it could damage the bass if it came off in the bag?

Thanks, Geoff. I do leave it on all the time. More potential damage would be done to my finish if I were to keep taking it off and putting it back on. The way I have it attached, it's not going to come off on its own. It's pressed on firmly with a gap of under 0.5 mm. If it somehow did come off in the case, I think if there were any damage, it would be slight as its so light and has no sharp edges.

 

[Ric Vice]

Thanks, Geoff. I do leave it on all the time. More potential damage would be done to my finish if I were to keep taking it off and putting it back on. The way I have it attached, it's not going to come off on its own. It's pressed on firmly with a gap of under 0.5 mm. If it somehow did come off in the case, I think if there were any damage, it would be slight as its so light and has no sharp edges.

Les,
There is one weird thing about the putty, although I've only had this happen once, on a very cold day, in the middle of the winter at below zero temperatures. On that day the pickup just kind of dropped off, it's never happened again, but it's something to note.
I would think that taking it on and off, could potentially damage the connection, between the cable, and the pickup, by constantly putting stress on that spot. Just my thoughts.

Ric

 

[drurb]

Les,
There is one weird thing about the putty, although I've only had this happen once, on a very cold day, in the middle of the winter at below zero temperatures. On that day the pickup just kind of dropped off, it's never happened again, but it's something to note.
I would think that taking it on and off, could potentially damage the connection, between the cable, and the pickup, by constantly putting stress on that spot. Just my thoughts.

Ric

When it's below zero outside, my bass doesn't really know about it. I don't let it get nearly that cold.

 

[Matt Power]

Hi Les, yeah, it's that ongoing struggle of sounding realistic vs being heard at all, isn't it? Mind you, given that what we hear may not be what the audience hears, I'm inclined to send what I believe to be a nice sound into the room and then take other measures to ensure that I can hear myself on stage (I use an angled amp stand to raise the amp & point the driver at my head, or other times a PA speaker at ear-level on a speaker stand). This is even truer when there's a venue desk; I send a nice acoustic sound to the room via the desk and then gently tweak my on-stage amp sound so that I can monitor myself (although having said that, the sound guy is completely capable of stuffing things up by pumping the bass excessively through the venue subwoofers) [/QUOTE]

I think that's why the Underwood is working so well for me. You HEAR ME out front, and I can hear myself! For me, it works great...YMMV...

 

[Ric Vice]

Hi Les, yeah, it's that ongoing struggle of sounding realistic vs being heard at all, isn't it? Mind you, given that what we hear may not be what the audience hears,

+1 I also think that there's a comfort zone EQ on stage, for the bassist, and the band, so that you and the band can hear the bass, within whatever ensemble you're playing. IME hat sound necessitates a little different EQ than the FOH mix does.

I'm inclined to send what I believe to be a nice sound into the room and then take other measures to ensure that I can hear myself on stage (I use an angled amp stand to raise the amp & point the driver at my head, or other times a PA speaker at ear-level on a speaker stand).

I two like to angle whatever box I use so I can hear it better. I only go to ear level when I'm forced to do that, because of nasty acoustics in a hall. The speakers I use, weren't really designed to be set up on a pole. Occasionall,y I use something as high as a chair, but only if it won't work any other way.

This is even truer when there's a venue desk; I send a nice acoustic sound to the room via the desk and then gently tweak my on-stage amp sound so that I can monitor myself (although having said that, the sound guy is completely capable of stuffing things up by pumping the bass excessively through the venue subwoofers)

"Engineers come in three flavors, great ones who get exceptional sound, nice guys who will listen to you, but don't have the musical ears to get a good bass sound, and fools who have a tremendous ego and know more about bass than you do.

I think that's why the Underwood is working so well for me. You HEAR ME out front, and I can hear myself! For me, it works great...YMMV...

I used the Underwood for a number of years, and compared to the Fishman BP-100 sounded exceptional. The Realist got me a much more pleasant sound, and the bow sounded very nice. Now the Ehrlund does every thing I'd ever want, with my bass, strings, Walter Woods Amps, and a EA VL 108 for small intimate gigs, or the Thunderchild 112.

Ric

 

[drurb]

The situations in which I play virtually never involve a FOH system. My rig is what the audience gets and I what I get except when we're using on-stage monitors. What I'm hoping is that the Ehrlund, by reproducing more accurately the attack/decay profile, actually provides a better sound from the vantage point of the audience AND allows me to hear my self better. That's what I experienced the other night. Tuesday night will be the big band. As I mentioned, that'll be a revealing test.

Thanks, everyone, for your insights.

Edit: Here are pics of the current installation. Why the loop? It allows for changing placement in the future at just about any desired location and makes it usable to another player should I ever decide to sell it.

 

[lofreek]

My Ehrlund arrived yesterday, and initial impressions on my Upton hybrid five are quite positive so far.

 

[drurb]

Last night was the expected trial by fire. When I got all set up, the first problem I encountered was that my regular cable did not play nice with the (Gollihur-supplied) female barrel connector that I installed. The problem was one reported in other threads before. The 1/4" male end of the cable was ever so slightly small causing the connection to cut in and out as it was hit with the vibration from the bass (that wonderful farting sound). Swapped with a spare cable and that did the trick.

The sound was, at first, boomy and several notes caused large resonances. I was not too happy. Classic case of acoustic feedback. I found the better position of the phase switch on the Ehrlund pre, faced the amp further away from me, tweaked the tone controls and voila!

Fantastic! That pretty much describes it. I've always struggled to hear myself with this large band, especially being squeezed next to the drums. No problem last night! The wonderful percussive attack discussed earlier carried right through as did the pitch. A downside (actually, an upside) was that I could hear any poor intonation clearly.

Maybe you're all getting tired of hearing this but I never quite experienced anything like it. What I heard was a big string bass against a 16-piece band. Wow!

I can't imagine ever going back to a sandwiched piezo element. In a very real sense, I'm enjoying hearing my bass amplified for the first time. I've never heard anything better besides a well-placed, expensive mic.

That's it, I'm hooked!

 

[engedi1]

Last night was the expected trial by fire. When I got all set up, the first problem I encountered was that my regular cable did not play nice with the (Gollihur-supplied) female barrel connector that I installed. The problem was one reported in other threads before. The 1/4" male end of the cable was ever so slightly small causing the connection to cut in and out as it was hit with the vibration from the bass (that wonderful farting sound). Swapped with a spare cable and that did the trick.

The sound was, at first, boomy and several notes caused large resonances. I was not too happy. Classic case of acoustic feedback. I found the better position of the phase switch on the Ehrlund pre, faced the amp further away from me, tweaked the tone controls and voila!

Fantastic! That pretty much describes it. I've always struggled to hear myself with this large band, especially being squeezed next to the drums. No problem last night! The wonderful percussive attack discussed earlier carried right through as did the pitch. A downside (actually, an upside) was that I could hear any poor intonation clearly.

Maybe you're all getting tired of hearing this but I never quite experienced anything like it. What I heard was a big string bass against a 16-piece band. Wow!

I can't imagine ever going back to a sandwiched piezo element. In a very real sense, I'm enjoying hearing my bass amplified for the first time. I've never heard anything better besides a well-placed, expensive mic.

That's it, I'm hooked!

Awesome. Pretty much my experience. I am glad that you took the plunge and are happy!

 

[Ric Vice]

The sound was, at first, boomy and several notes caused large resonances. I was not too happy. Classic case of acoustic feedback. I found the better position of the phase switch on the Ehrlund pre, faced the amp further away from me, tweaked the tone controls and voila!

Fantastic! That pretty much describes it. I've always struggled to hear myself with this large band, especially being squeezed next to the drums. No problem last night! The wonderful percussive attack discussed earlier carried right through as did the pitch. A downside (actually, an upside) was that I could hear any poor intonation clearly.

Maybe you're all getting tired of hearing this but I never quite experienced anything like it. What I heard was a big string bass against a 16-piece band. Wow!

I can't imagine ever going back to a sandwiched piezo element. In a very real sense, I'm enjoying hearing my bass amplified for the first time. I've never heard anything better besides a well-placed, expensive mic.

That's it, I'm hooked!

Les,
Glad it works for you. When it works it really works.

 

[geoffbassist]

Great news that it's working so well. To get good results with a big band is fantastic. Let us know how you get on at gigs in future.

 

[Clarkybass]

Encouraged by this thread and one of the UK's BassChat, I got an Ehrlund this morning and have been playing around with it this afternoon. It sounds great on my steel-strung Kolstein Busetto without too much mucking around over positioning and very much "my bass only louder". However I am really struggling with my German 1880s flatback which has thumpy Silver Slaps on. If I site the pickup too close to the bridge and sound bar, all the volume disappears (presumably as there is less resonance of the top) but if I move it to far away it becomes boomy and can even run to feedback. I've tried it where drurb has his on the picture above thread. So far I just can't get a nice sound. It generally sounds too quite, or too boomy or like a nasal piezo. I will persevere but I am a little disheartened that it simply will not suit this particular DB. Any thoughts or suggestion people? Many thanks!

 

[Ric Vice]

......... However I am really struggling with my German 1880s flatback which has thumpy Silver Slaps on. If I site the pickup too close to the bridge and sound bar, all the volume disappears (presumably as there is less resonance of the top) but if I move it to far away it becomes boomy and can even run to feedback. I've tried it where drurb has his on the picture above thread.

First of all, when installing an Ehrlund, it's best to move it around in very small increments, over the target area, and keep track of where you placed it, kind of like a submarine running a grid square.

Second, You really don't need a lot of putty, IME, although others have different opinions on this. The less the better IMHO.

Third, it doesn't really make full surface contact, like a piezo pickup does. All you have to do is mount the corners of the triangle.

Fourth, it's a linear device, so you'll never get the volume "bump" that a Realist or Full Circle has. I've noticed that when you increase the volume it comes up gradually, which in some playing environments can be deceptive. It's also actually blending with other instruments as it gets louder.

Fifth, the Pre Amp is mandatory, it increases the over all volume output of the pickup, enhances the midrange, and slightly boosts the bass response.

So far I just can't get a nice sound. It generally sounds too quite, or too boomy or like a nasal piezo. I will persevere but I am a little disheartened that it simply will not suit this particular DB. Any thoughts or suggestion people? Many thanks!

Unfortunately, the difference between your two instruments points out that in many cases the Ehrlund either works or doesn't. When it works it's breathtaking. That's why I love the fact that Gollihur Music offers a trial period to test it out on your bass. Very good business sense.

Ric

 

[Clarkybass]

Right, tried turning preamp to 'high' (a suggestion from the UK distributor - its apparently fine for DB), smaller blobs, different sized gaps, different placements ... and what ever I do it still sounds worse than the Full Circle that was on my German flatback to begin with. Thing is, it sounds great on the Kolstein but that not my main gigging bass ...

 

[Ric Vice]

Right, tried turning preamp to 'high' (a suggestion from the UK distributor - its apparently fine for DB), smaller blobs, different sized gaps, different placements ... and what ever I do it still sounds worse than the Full Circle that was on my German flatback to begin with. Thing is, it sounds great on the Kolstein but that not my main gigging bass ...

Clarky Bass,
I ask Goran Ehrlund about the high position on the pre amp. His reply was that the high setting was for guitar and not intended for Double Bass. So, that wouldn't be something that I'd use on upright. Thought you'd like to know, Unfortunately, it doesn't help with a week signal

Ric

 

[drurb]

First of all, when installing an Ehrlund, it's best to move it around in very small increments, over the target area, and keep track of where you placed it, kind of like a submarine running a grid square.

Second, You really don't need a lot of putty, IME, although others have different opinions on this. The less the better IMHO.

Third, it doesn't really make full surface contact, like a piezo pickup does. All you have to do is mount the corners of the triangle.

Fourth, it's a linear device, so you'll never get the volume "bump" that a Realist or Full Circle has. I've noticed that when you increase the volume it comes up gradually, which in some playing environments can be deceptive. It's also actually blending with other instruments as it gets louder.

Fifth, the Pre Amp is mandatory, it increases the over all volume output of the pickup, enhances the midrange, and slightly boosts the bass response.



Unfortunately, the difference between your two instruments points out that in many cases the Ehrlund either works or doesn't. When it works it's breathtaking. That's why I love the fact that Gollihur Music offers a trial period to test it out on your bass. Very good business sense.

Ric

+1 to every bit of the above. Hang in there... small changes sure can make substantial differences. I, too, found the Ehrlund's output to be too low until I used only tiny balls of putty placed at the corners and pressed it on the top with a gap of under 0.5 mm.

 

[jmmcc]

I wonder if there Is a relation between higher tension strings = better results / low tension strings = worst results?