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Double Bass An Ehrlund blog, sort of

#581
By the way! Anybody tired the EAP with a notch filter ( Headway, PZ-pre, LR Baggs ), it not helps to be more loud? With the EAP you can get more natural sound, but in a same time your bass's weaknesses show out, including the peak resonance, what every instrument have ( my bass has the peak freq around 73hz ), I can imagine the notch filter could help. My plan is to keep my old BP-100 in the gig bag, is not the best pickup, but is portable, removable, cheap and you can get crazy loud without any feedback.
 
#582
Barcza said:
By the way! Anybody tired the EAP with a notch filter ( Headway, PZ-pre, LR Baggs ), it not helps to be more loud? With the EAP you can get more natural sound, but in a same time your bass's weaknesses show out, including the peak resonance, what every instrument have ( my bass has the peak freq around 73hz ), I can imagine the notch filter could help. My plan is to keep my old BP-100 in the gig bag, is not the best pickup, but is portable, removable, cheap and you can get crazy loud without any feedback.
Click to expand...

Those resonances contribute to the character of the instrument. I'd have no desire to use a notch filter with the EAP. That would be too much "fiddling" (so to speak) for me. :)
 
#584
Yes, the peak/resonant frequency, maybe could be a part of a particular instruments character, but many sound engineer use narrow EQ in live situation and olso in recording. My sound engineer friend send one of our mix to his previous teacher the Grammy Award wining engneneer Helik Hadar ( Herbie Hancock : Joni letters ) for feedback, he suggested to find and notching out about 3db the bass resonant frequency. The resonant freq allways there and it could cover the rest of the band, sometimes very hard to find the balance of the mix without working on the resonant freqs. In Live situation the resonant freq cause the feedback. I can get twice as much gain with my DPA 4099 using narrow EQ and hipass filter, and the clearer bass sound give space for the rest of the band. Bass sound itself could be a little bit dry, maybe tend to thin, but most of the time works better in the band. In a quiet gig with pickup, the notch filter doesn't needed, but many time it's a very effective tool, to get clear sound on stage, in my experience.
 
#585
I've been really successfull using the notch on the EDB1 with the Ehrlund (because of feedback issues). I don't think I was cutting natural frequencies of my instrument, but just normalizing some peaking freqs caused by the PU location (moving it to another location would also work, but then I'd get a decreased output). I use minimal bandwith (Q = 0.5) and filter somewhere in the 60hz-160hz range, depending on the stage/situation. The low mids are also tamed quite a bit with the EQ. Never felt like any part of of my instrument's character was missing, and I don't think I could play live the volume I play without a notch filter on the EAP or any other mics.

FWIW The open D is often the culprit on my bass, I cannot play long natural harmonics or bow the open string without feedback, while other notes don't generate any at the same volume. It's hard to tell when I'm behind the bass, but I don't feel like it's louder than the others while played acoustically.
 
#586
Adagio said:
I've been really successfull using the notch on the EDB1 with the Ehrlund (because of feedback issues). I don't think I was cutting natural frequencies of my instrument, but just normalizing some peaking freqs caused by the PU location (moving it to another location would also work, but then I'd get a decreased output). I use minimal bandwith (Q = 0.5) and filter somewhere in the 60hz-160hz range, depending on the stage/situation. The low mids are also tamed quite a bit with the EQ. Never felt like any part of of my instrument's character was missing, and I don't think I could play live the volume I play without a notch filter on the EAP or any other mics.

FWIW The open D is often the culprit on my bass, I cannot play long natural harmonics or bow the open string without feedback, while other notes don't generate any at the same volume. It's hard to tell when I'm behind the bass, but I don't feel like it's louder than the others while played acoustically.
Click to expand...

So, the Headway works well with the EAP! Do you use it instead of the Ehrlund pre or with the Ehrlund pre?
Open D (73Hz) is a common peak freq, If you knock the body of the bass and analize the knock with a frequency meter probable this freq will be the highest point, this is the body's own freq.
 
#587
Barcza said:
So, the Headway works well with the EAP! Do you use it instead of the Ehrlund pre or with the Ehrlund pre?
Click to expand...

I've tried the EAP with the Headway EDB-1 with and the EAP and it certainly works fine. Combining the Ehrlund Pre Amp with the EDB-1 also works, and I think it greatly improves the tone quality. Of course, it also boost the signal into the Headway so, you're dealing with three gain stages into a bass amp. I've had the best success using the Ehrlund Preamp/Headway EDB-1 combination into a powered speaker. Otherwise it's very prone to feed back.


Barcza said:
Open D (73Hz) is a common peak freq, If you knock the body of the bass and analize the knock with a frequency meter probable this freq will be the highest point, this is the body's own freq.
Click to expand...

Good information, on my particular bass that isn't a problem, it's the open A string that really speaks.

Ric
 
#588
Been using the EAP for quite some time now and I've mostly got it working the way I want. My current setup is EAP > EAP-Pre > Fdeck HPF > Headway EDB-1 > QSC K10. The only problem I'm having at this point is that in some situations, I'm getting over-emphasized highs, even with the prescence and high eq bands fully cut on the EDB-1.
I need something like the Fdeck but also with a low pass filter. In other words, a fully adjustable bandpass filter. Unfortunately, i can't find anything on the market that fulfills this need.
I started looking into the possibility of building a circuit myself but I think I'm in over my head with that.
Thoughts, suggestions?
 
#589
aaronallen said:
Been using the EAP for quite some time now and I've mostly got it working the way I want. My current setup is EAP > EAP-Pre > Fdeck HPF > Headway EDB-1 > QSC K10. The only problem I'm having at this point is that in some situations, I'm getting over-emphasized highs, even with the prescence and high eq bands fully cut on the EDB-1.
Click to expand...

Aaron,
Wow, that's a very long signal chain between the bass and the QSC. You have 4 gain stages, so I would think each one would increase the noise level.

I've been using basically the same setup. EAP, Ehrlund Preamp, Headway EDB-1, into the smaller QSC K8. I hadn't thought of inserting the HPF.

Since the Ehrlund Pre Amp already matches the pickups impedance to the Headway. First, I'd pull the HPF and see if the noise level goes down.

Then pull the Ehrlund Pre Amp and see if the noise level decreases again. I know that's not a solution to the problem, but at least you'll know what's creating the noise.

The EDB-1 does produce some high frequency hiss that you can hear when you increase the volume. I recently saw the new Acoustic Image Flex pre amp and it's got a variable low cut filter, 48 volt phantom, phase reverse, and two independent channel's of EQ.

It's advantage is that Rick Jones insisted that it be quiet, his test was putting his ears right up next to the speaker and checking that it was silent.


Ric
 
#590
Barcza said:
Yes, the peak/resonant frequency, maybe could be a part of a particular instruments character, but many sound engineer use narrow EQ in live situation and olso in recording...
Click to expand...

Adagio said:
I've been really successfull using the notch on the EDB1 with the Ehrlund (because of feedback issues). I don't think I was cutting natural frequencies of my instrument, but just normalizing some peaking freqs caused by the PU location (moving it to another location would also work, but then I'd get a decreased output)....The open D is often the culprit on my bass, I cannot play long natural harmonics or bow the open string without feedback, while other notes don't generate any at the same volume. It's hard to tell when I'm behind the bass, but I don't feel like it's louder than the others while played acoustically.
Click to expand...

I understand that a notch filter can be of practical use in the situations described. It simply wouldn't be my first line of attack. A good parametric tone-shaping circuit can be your best friend (which, of course, can implement a notch filter). I've been pushing that for years. Now, if a particular bass has a very pronounced peak in one place or another, then, again, a notch filter could be quite effective. In that case, you very much are altering the natural sound of your instrument in a way that you find improves it. No issue there.

aaronallen said:
Been using the EAP for quite some time now and I've mostly got it working the way I want. My current setup is EAP > EAP-Pre > Fdeck HPF > Headway EDB-1 > QSC K10. The only problem I'm having at this point is that in some situations, I'm getting over-emphasized highs, even with the prescence and high eq bands fully cut on the EDB-1.
I need something like the Fdeck but also with a low pass filter. In other words, a fully adjustable bandpass filter. Unfortunately, i can't find anything on the market that fulfills this need.
I started looking into the possibility of building a circuit myself but I think I'm in over my head with that.
Thoughts, suggestions?
Click to expand...

Yes, see above. Forget about a bandpass filter. I suggest that you do as Ric suggests and use as few stages as possible in your signal chain. A parametric tone-shaping circuit would likely solve all of your issues and give you great flexibility. Then, your signal chain could be Ehrlund, Ehlund pre, tone-shaping, QSC. Clean, simple, and effective.
 
#591
drurb said:
Yes, see above. Forget about a bandpass filter. I suggest that you do as Ric suggests and use as few stages as possible in your signal chain. A parametric tone-shaping circuit would likely solve all of your issues and give you great flexibility. Then, your signal chain could be Ehrlund, Ehlund pre, tone-shaping, QSC. Clean, simple, and effective.
Click to expand...

Les,
Good ideas. There may potentially be a problem though, as the QSC doesn't really have a usable pre amp, per se. It has very primitive tone shaping capabilities, so you really need a pre amp of some sort to EQ what's essentially just a powered speaker with a three position EQ switch. I've certainly used the QSC running only the Ehrlund Preamp, but it's a little tricky, and might not work in situations where you needed finesse the sound. Just my take.

Ric
 
#592
Ric Vice said:
Les,
Good ideas. There may potentially be a problem though, as the QSC doesn't really have a usable pre amp, per se. It has very primitive tone shaping capabilities, so you really need a pre amp of some sort to EQ what's essentially just a powered speaker with a three position EQ switch. I've certainly used the QSC running only the Ehrlund Preamp, but it's a little tricky, and might not work in situations where you needed finesse the sound. Just my take.

Ric
Click to expand...

Ric--

Maybe I'm missing something but that's why I suggested a stage of parametric tone shaping just prior to the QSC in the chain. So, as usual, we're in complete agreement. :)
 
#593
As I have an Ehrlund, I am interested in the parametric tone shaping suggestion you chaps have suggested (and agreed on ;D ) Would you be able to give an example or two of an appropriate parametric device as I 'm not well up on these things? Thanks!
 
#595
Clarkybass said:
As I have an Ehrlund, I am interested in the parametric tone shaping suggestion you chaps have suggested (and agreed on ;D ) Would you be able to give an example or two of an appropriate parametric device as I 'm not well up on these things? Thanks!
Click to expand...

CB,
Personally, even though it's not truly a parametric EQ I don't think you can beat the Headway EDB-1 for tone shaping, size, and price. I was under the impression that you had the EDB-1. Perhaps I was mistaken. There once was a very well made two channel blender with two graphic EQ's. I believe it was built by Sabine. There's also the Empress DI that was getting lots of press on TBass. Just some thoughts.

Ric
 
#596
Afraid I didn't like the Headway. It was just a little too complex for me and hard to see in the dark with the tiny fiddly controls to make on-the-fly gig adjustments. So I moved it on. At the moment I am using the Ehrlund into EAP pre and then into my various amps (Acoustic Image, EA, MarkBass) and using their DI out. I find I have to cut the bass quite a lot with my Kolstein travel bass as its quite boomy. I haven't used it with my fdeck as I was worried about the sound going through too many signal stages but maybe I should?
 
#597
Clarkybass said:
Afraid I didn't like the Headway. It was just a little too complex for me and hard to see in the dark with the tiny fiddly controls to make on-the-fly gig adjustments. So I moved it on. At the moment I am using the Ehrlund into EAP pre and then into my various amps (Acoustic Image, EA, MarkBass) and using their DI out. I find I have to cut the bass quite a lot with my Kolstein travel bass as its quite boomy. I haven't used it with my fdeck as I was worried about the sound going through too many signal stages but maybe I should?
Click to expand...

Nice instrument, I understand it's modeled after the Scott Lafaro Prescott that Barie Kolstein reconstructed. The Headway does indeed have very small dials. My recommendation would be having a look at the new Flex Preamp that Acoustic Image will be offering. I actually had my hands on one the ISB convention this month. It has illuminated controls!

Ric
 

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