Analyzing Neck Dive

[Acoustic356]

I have a theory... neck dive can be solved with ergonomic changes.

Some people say "bass X has bad neck dive" - while others don't have an issue. I see this consistently... so the question is what is the difference?

1. The strap that is being used
2. The body stature of the player
3. The ergonomics of how the player holds the bass

So... anyone suffering from neck dive willing to submit pictures or video for analysis?

 

[IamGroot]

Never heard of neck dive until I joined TB.

Maybe because I use very little thumb pressure on my fretting hand and counterbalance the pull of my fretting arm (similar to playing DB) with my left hand..

 

[JRA]

i don't have any axes with the problem: either i don't get those in the first place or i fix/resolve the issue. that said: when i was younger i didn't notice balance issues as much...i wasn't as 'sensitive' to unbalanced instruments.

 

[Acoustic356]

i don't have any axes with the problem: either i don't get those in the first place or i fix/resolve the issue. that said: when i was younger i didn't notice balance issues as much...i wasn't as 'sensitive' to unbalanced instruments.

I watched a lot of videos on YouTube where people talk about fixing "the problem."

In almost every instance, the person demonstrating the problem demonstrates it by pushing the bass with one hand or the other...

 

[Acoustic356]

Neck dive is typically caused by the balance point of a bass on a strap being biased to the headstock. Add non-technique balance factors to your list:

4) Lengthen upper bout/horn to change balance point using an auxiliary attachment
5) Decrease mass at headstock with light-weight tuners
6) Add mass at strap connection (ex: a strap with a pocket for a weight) near bridge

Neck dive while seated without a strap is typically caused by
7) Body design in terms of location of lap cut-out affecting balance point
8) Unbalanced wood/hardware weight of neck and body components

A Steinberger bass (link below) illustrates balance concepts 4 and 7. This bass has a small rectangular body design that precludes balance on lap or strap. Balance is only achieved when a strap extender is used, and/or the leg rest is added (photo 3, below).

1982 Steinberger L2 Fretless Bass | www.12fret.com

... and oddly there are people that will say they have neck dive with Steinbergers.

Let's take Telecaster guitars which don't have a "tummy cut" - there are people that experience "neck dive" and people that don't.

That is why I don't want to talk anectdotally, I want to analyze tangible things... like ergonomics without modification.

 

[Watchootognbout]

For minimal effort playing,the bass should "float"

The fretting hand shouldn't have to raise the neck while fretting.
This unnecessarily loads the fretting forearm muscles.

 

[Nashrakh]

For minimal effort playing,the bass should "float"
View attachment 3725715
The fretting hand shouldn't have to raise the neck while fretting.
This unnecessarily loads the fretting forearm muscles.

Looking at this picture, "neck dive" is a pretty undefined term. Your neck has about the same angle as my Ibby 6er, but I would call it neckdivey because I like my angle to be pretty steep. Though in cases like mine, there's some easy tricks: I loop the strap through a belt hoop before attaching it to the lower strap pin. Works with all neckdivey basses too.

 

[Watchootognbout]

Looking at this picture, "neck dive" is a pretty undefined term. Your neck has about the same angle as my Ibby 6er, but I would call it neckdivey because I like my angle to be pretty steep. Though in cases like mine, there's some easy tricks: I loop the strap through a belt hoop before attaching it to the lower strap pin. Works with all neckdivey basses too.

That picture shows neck dive negated by a Comfort Strapp.
Without it,it would be nearly horizontal.

 

[donahue]

Neck dive is a result of the design of the instrument. If you hang it off of 1000 people it will do the same thing. And if it doesn't, a person is doing something physical to stop it which you shouldn't have to do in the first place if it was designed better.

Neck dive=bad design

 

[Ric5]

I have a theory... neck dive can be solved with ergonomic changes.

Some people say "bass X has bad neck dive" - while others don't have an issue. I see this consistently... so the question is what is the difference?

1. The strap that is being used
2. The body stature of the player
3. The ergonomics of how the player holds the bass

So... anyone suffering from neck dive willing to submit pictures or video for analysis?

the biggest part about neck dive is how you define it.

1 - For me any bass that will not stay parallel to the ground without assistance from my hand has neck dive

2 - but some define neck dive is any bass that the neck will not stay angled up at 45 degrees without assistance form my hand has neck dive.

Most basses will pass number 1 and most basses will fail number 2 ...

my solution to neck dive

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Yeah, it’s not a popular view, but the best cure for neck dive is to buy or build a bass that was built right in the first place, plenty out there. I can’t abide a neck diver, and I include in that category anything that dives standing OR seated. I know a lot of people love T Birds and SG shaped bodies (including me on the SG shape) , but they are rolling train wrecks design wise. Like a lot of instruments, ergonomics was no more than a distant consideration. If you are willing to put aesthetics ahead of ergonomics, that’s cool, it’s a conscious decision. Full disclosure, I love Ric basses, they balance well, but are otherwise “ergonomically challenged” particularly those with bound bodies. Just for the record, a Steinberger L2 with the pivoting strap hanger is the only PERFECTLY balanced bass I’ve ever played. The snap-on knee brace was a little Borky, but also balanced fine on your knee. I later bought a Steinberger XP-2 which lacked the pivot, but had a folding knee rest that works really well. Among major brands, I’d say Ibanez has the most consistently balanced basses. All the “workarounds” you’ll read in this thread are just compensating for bad design, it is what it is.

 

[invalidprotocol]

I see no neck dive here...

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Check out this thread:
A T-Bird with no neck dive!
Grabbird = Thunderbird + Grabber

 

[LT131]

Neck dive is a result of the design of the instrument. If you hang it off of 1000 people it will do the same thing. And if it doesn't, a person is doing something physical to stop it which you shouldn't have to do in the first place if it was designed better.

Neck dive=bad design

You are right. Many basses are designed looks first, form before function, which does give us a cool palette of shapes to peruse. Some pretty iconic basses like Hofner, Gibby EB's and T-Birds, many semi-hollows, and early Alembics were simply born to be neck heavy. A lot of really cool looking basses can neck dive. Even the quest for light weight can lead some solid designs towards neck dive.

The bass is a lever and the strap button the fulcrum. It's balance. If you hang the thing from the strap button and the neck goes down you got, to some degree, neck dive. Depending on how bad some can be lived with. If it's too bad it might be fixed by subtracting weight from the neck or adding weight to the body, not always acceptable. Sometimes you can finagle the location of the strap button. Tie it to your belt or something. Or, don't buy it or let it go. I won't live with neck dive.

 

[ThinCrappyTone]

I think neck dive can sometimes affect one’s playing negatively (though subtly) without the player really noticing it.

Before getting a few headless instruments, I didn’t usually notice neck dive, or the subtle negative affect it was having.

Now that I mostly play headless instruments, it’s very noticeable how having an instrument that floats in perfect playing position is better for me than having to unconsciously divert left hand energy to keeping a divey instrument in position.

 

[Frank77]

Neck dive can only be truly fixed by changing the design (the balance points, specifically).

Grabby strap? The bass is still neck diving, only now it's your shirt that's doing the work - annoying and uncomfortable.

One semi-funny video I've seen suggests running your strap through your belt to keep the bass from moving. Hey, if you want to feel like you're being wedgied the whole set, go for it!

 

[Gilmourisgod]

The most effective neck dive solution based in design is headless. A lot of people cringe, don’t like the look, or feel it’s dated to the 80’s somehow, but it’s basic physics, put a lot of weight in tuners and wood on the end of a 24” lever, and you need a heavy body or a really long upper horn to counteract it. One compromise solution is to have bridge located headless style tuners to move most of the weight rearward, and use the “headstock” as a decorative string retainer. I’m seriously considering that for my next build.

 

[Frank77]

The most effective neck dive solution based in design is headless.

Yes! You still need a balance point around the 12th fret though, otherwise it will dive (if it's a standard 34'' scale, anyway) - learned that the hard way. IME, the absolute best ergonomy is a "traditional" body shape / size with headless hardware. I had a bass made like this, it's an ergonomic dream.

 

[red_rhino]

Yeah, it’s not a popular view, but the best cure for neck dive is to buy or build a bass that was built right in the first place, plenty out there. I can’t abide a neck diver, and I include in that category anything that dives standing OR seated.

^^^^THIS

Even expensive, well-crafted basses can suffer from neck dive. I think the drive for ever lighter body weight (e.g. chambering and/or roasting) often tilts (see what I did there?) the balance toward the neck. While I do enjoy a light bass, I prefer a heavier bass with better overall balance to a light bass with neck dive.

The degree of neck dive is also a factor. My 65P balances level on my finger right around the 16th/17th fret, which means it sinks just slightly when played sitting down, but balances just fine on a strap. My Tobias Classic 4 balances right at the 24th fret, and has no neck dive at all played seated or standing.

I've played some basses that are sooooo far off that even on a strap, the body of the bass shifts to be off-center with the body of the player. I want to play basses, not wrestle them.

 

[WillyW]