Annoying issue playing standing.

[Polfuste]

For the diving problem, one of the solutions is to change tuners by lighter ones as Hipshot or others. It worked very well on my PJ. No more neck dive. And on the Ken Smith burner, I've just extended the upper attach the same way showed on pics in a previous reply, with this kind of idea and a longer screw to compensate the lenght difference. That is working very well. A 2 cm extend can change everything for you.

 

[Outbush]

Sorry, apparently my last 2 images went missing from my previous post so here they are with the comments cut from my previous post on page 3. This photo coming up shows the mod so it's the important one!

"To achieve this change you will need to focus for a while on consciously changing how you hold you bass when playing standing up but that will become automatic over time. The other thing you will need to do is a little mod that anyone handy with tools will be able to do - moving the back strap button from the traditional position in line with the middle of the bridge 100mm/4" up the bass (See photo below). A great suggestion of how to measure this to suit you personally appeared earlier in this thread. The Duostraps have 2 shoulder straps and one diagonal strap from the top horn to the back strap pin and you can see that diagonal strap in the "normal" strap position in this last photo, however the shoulder straps can be seen attached to the relocated strap pin where a normal single strap would attach. This new position will move the nut up and closer to you allowing all the changes I have mentioned here and in my first post a couple of days ago.

Finally, this is not a one-size-fits-all solution for every bass player on earth but the OP and I seem to share a very similar way of holding our instruments and with a short period of adjustment it should address the issues in his original post. I would not recommend these changes to Paul Simonon of The Clash or Simon Gallup of The Cure (whilst I'm on a UK thing) as it is not suitable to them and their way of playing so I'd ask that no-one states this is outright "wrong"; I'm trying to help with a tailored response. (Better if it costs nothing too. )[/QUOTE]

 

[cheapbasslovin]

OP, I looked at your page 3 responses and I have a few notes based on my experiences. FYI I'm a little over 6' tall so this may not translate to you exactly.

If you want to move a strap button you will indeed need to drill a new hole, which sucks, but then you'll have two strap locations to use which may be useful for different techniques. Plus one of the joys of an old Peavey is that small mods don't really alter their value.

Assuming you don't move the button:

My neck does dive a little when I release the bass. That said, my bass usually rests at a spot where my left elbow is right about at neck height so I'm mostly just rotating my arm around and doing any lifting with my bicep and not my shoulder. At the lowest positions there's a little bit of a stretch, but so long as I don't live there it's fine. Looking at your pic you may need to lower your bass a touch to get to that (or it may not work for you at all, but here's to hoping).

And lastly - I know it's been harped on a lot - but a comfortable, broad strap is so important for playing endurance. They help hold the bass where you want and make it feel lighter on your shoulder. I know they're not cheap and they feel like a thing outside the music and not worth paying for, but once you have one you'll never look back. I'd rather play a cheap bass on an expensive strap than an expensive bass on a cheap strap any day of the week.

 

[vindibona1]

I'm going to approach the question from a different perspective. HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY ACCESS THE FRETS DOWN BY THE BODY FROM YOUR SITTING POSITION AND ACTUALLY PLAY??? I can see that you don't have command of the entire fingerboard. In fact, I'll bet you have difficulty below the 7th fret. The position from a versatility perspective is fundamentally compromised. IMO you've habituated a bad playing position then have issues if you try to change it to a better position.

While a lot of folks say that you should have the same position seated as when standing. Perhaps I've said that too, but there may be a compromise where you change your seated position and what you perceive should be the standing position and find something in the middle. THE ONE THING I WOULD SUGGEST IS USE A STRAP AT ALL TIMES and find that in-between position, at least for now. Don't use your leg as a reference right now. It's messing up your position. I can see that sitting with the bass on your leg it's skewed too far to the right. Your left hand is contracted to the point where it can't be fluid and your right hand is cramped (and limited in what you can do). Even without a strap, you can find a way to sit and have a more open position.

IMO, based on what you have habituated, I would suggest you always play a strap. Unless your position will allow your leg to place the bass properly, a strap will be invaluable. Based on the your photo is looks like you're playing an MIM P bass. Does it feel like there is neck dive? If so, a strap is essential unless you can balance it with lighter tuners. You don't want to fight the bass for position. If not balanced- use a strap. The friction will free you from having to support the neck with your hand and give you way more fluidity. Photo 2 is good, but if you raised it 1/2" to 1" you might see a great difference. The bass doesn't need to be dead center on your body. With a strap there are adjustments and compromises.

Strap hurts your shoulder? Get a wider strap, probably 3.5" wide, maybe padded if the bass is heavy. There is a cheap 3.5" Perris strap on Amazon for $13. Not padded, but suede inside so if you have neck-dive the friction counters that. Need padding? While some straps can cost a lot, there are some good budget alternatives.

On my lighter basses I use the cheap strap below. I take time and effort to break it in, sometimes to the point where it looks distressed (and oh so cool). Because I don't like the strap digging into my neck vein I cut a crescent out for comfort. No need on the padded straps. Below I will list the two straps I use on my basses, the more expensive one on the two basses that get close to 10 pounds, though I comfortably use the cheaper one on my 10 pound Squier. Again, the cheap one needs a lot of TLC to get it broken in right. Thumbnail will take you to the link. See the broken in photo. You'd not think that was a $13 strap... $11 when I purchased it. I have about 7 of them now for various guitars and basses. I never play without a strap attached, so they each have their own.

The Perris ALPDX below as about $50, but is no longer available. But another inexpensive brand might due; Walker and Williams.

For $35 you can get a nice strap from W/W. The padding is good but the lining can be a little slick. I run some low grit sand paper over it to give it some roughness if I need it to help me keep everything in place.

If your shoulder still hurts, try a double strap that goes across both shoulders. Groove Gear makes on like this. There are others.

Getting back to your position, your photo 2 is MUCH better positioned to access the whole bass. And while your left arm is extended more, it's not in that lazy cramped, compressed position. And you must not realize it yet, but pointed out by another forum member, that if you take photo 2 and try raising the bass up, perhaps 1/2" at a time, you might feel much more comfortable.

There are tons of bass players better than me, but being an "older" bass player with issues like arthritis in my hands, stiffening body parts, getting things right becomes very apparent. But I have a story about one 22 year young guy full time wannabe guitarist that I play with regularly. Like you, he ignored ergonomics- to the point where his joints got so inflamed he had to lay off entirely for a year. When he came back, he had a more ergonomic guitar, and to my surprise he started using one of those classical foot rests to position his guitar exactly in the spot that I think is unthinkable to you right now. I'm not suggesting that, but IMO you have to change things before you develop stress injuries that you will not want to deal with.

Sorry for the length and if you think I'm blasting you. Read the others' responses and you'll probably see a lot of similarities to what I just said above. Good luck.

Dismounting soap box.

 

[JimmyM]

You are putting way too much thought into playing according to the alleged “rules.” Put the thing where it’s comfortable and you aren’t in pain. The end.

 

[vindibona1]

You are putting way too much thought into playing according to the alleged “rules.” Put the thing where it’s comfortable and you aren’t in pain. The end.

I agree with you Jimmy, but have to disagree at the same time. I think your approach might be too simple for someone whose position is so far out of whack. Anything he does differently will be better. Sometimes you're comfortable- for awhile, until soft tissue inflammation creeps out of nowhere and sidelines you. As you know comfort is the first sign that you are probably doing something right. But when someone's ergonomics start so far off, even the comfort position can allow for repetitive stress injury. As I noted in my earlier rant I've seen that with one of the young guys I play with. Felts comfortable. Looked comfortable... until the pain set in and he had to lay out for a year and had to come back with a whole different approach, switching to a Kiesel headless guitar in a classical position. As comfortable as he looked and thought he felt, it didn't stop the injury. Just sayin'.

 

[bigjames]

didn't your left shoulder get tired when playing in the 1-5 frets? ( while sitting)

If I position the bass at a bit of an up angle, no, not really. It kind of sits the same way my Fbass sits when standing with the strap...

 

[bigjames]

THANKS TO ALL!

I read all the comments and tried in different positions following your advices.
I found that playing in the classic guitar position while sitting, although I still have to figure out very well the technique and the holding, is actually confortable. so I adjust the strap to have the bass hanging in that way when standing but here is what I found:

I think the reason why my best position ( first photo sitting ) is the actual most confortable is because, besides of bringing the nut closer to me, I hold the bass from moving and that way my left hand is totally free to move and finger better. That's why I tend to rest my right arm so lazily also when I stand, because that way the bass is kind of still.

So now that I am standing and the bass's head is up closer to my head imitating the classic guitar position, I need to hold it with my left hand, which makes imposible so slide through the neck , otherwise, it keeps falling down, and to avoid this, I should press the bass' body agains me, which makes my wirst bent a lot , not to mention get tired for pressing..

Look at the photos and see how the the bass's head dives down.
The strap actually doesn't slides down, it just stretches down, but the material, as some mentioned, even though is indeed cheap, is not making the strap sliding down.

I am actually starting to get frustrated.
View attachment 4687042 View attachment 4687043 View attachment 4687044

Yeah, yeah, you got exactly what I was saying...I find this very comfortable once I adjusted to it. I am told I play with my bass higher on the strap than some others do, but I figure to each their own....it works for me.

 

[10emmanuel]

OP, I looked at your page 3 responses and I have a few notes based on my experiences. FYI I'm a little over 6' tall so this may not translate to you exactly.

If you want to move a strap button you will indeed need to drill a new hole, which sucks, but then you'll have two strap locations to use which may be useful for different techniques. Plus one of the joys of an old Peavey is that small mods don't really alter their value.

Assuming you don't move the button:

My neck does dive a little when I release the bass. That said, my bass usually rests at a spot where my left elbow is right about at neck height so I'm mostly just rotating my arm around and doing any lifting with my bicep and not my shoulder. At the lowest positions there's a little bit of a stretch, but so long as I don't live there it's fine. Looking at your pic you may need to lower your bass a touch to get to that (or it may not work for you at all, but here's to hoping).

And lastly - I know it's been harped on a lot - but a comfortable, broad strap is so important for playing endurance. They help hold the bass where you want and make it feel lighter on your shoulder. I know they're not cheap and they feel like a thing outside the music and not worth paying for, but once you have one you'll never look back. I'd rather play a cheap bass on an expensive strap than an expensive bass on a cheap strap any day of the week.

thanks! so what strap do you recommend?

 

[cheapbasslovin]

thanks! so what strap do you recommend?

Lol, I don't know. I bought mine in store and don't remember the name.

That said, a broad soft leather or a padded neoprene are what I have and they are so much better than the canvas or vinyl straps I used before.

This is probably good
Levy's DM1 3" Leather Guitar Strap with Padded Interior- Black

This is probably better
Levy's MSS2 4.5-inch Garment Leather with Heavy Padding Bass Strap - Black

They don't have to be Levi, that's just what came up on Sweetwater.

I think this is the neoprene one I have and it's pretty comfortable but it's springy so if I get a little headbangy the bass bounces around a bunch and that's bad. If you're not bouncy it's probably good.

Fender Swell Neoprene Guitar Strap - 3"

 

[vindibona1]

thanks! so what strap do you recommend?

I know I got a little (a lot) long winded, but in terms of strap recommendations, a lot depends on the weight of your bass.

Below find a screen shot of the instruments I have hanging on my wall at this moment (acoustics and others hibernating in the closet). Going from left to right, the Les Paul, Squier Jazz4, Gio6, (skip over the Jazz 5 next), Yamaha TRBX606, all have Perri's inexpensive 3.5" leather straps. They have all been broken in. Because they don't have padding they have a rough suede interior which helps with neck dive. They feel cheap when you get them, so a lot of elbow grease was involved in making them supple, but I love them. I also have a hole punch and on several have added extra holes on the tail strap at half the distance between for finer height control. The Strat now has one of those 3.5" cheap Perris straps now too.

The Jazz 5 (3rd from the right) is close to 10 pounds and has a padded Perris strap as does the right-most Ibanez BTB675, which is a bit over 9 pounds. Unfortunately I don't think Perris offers this model. Levy's is a good brand as is Franklin, but more expensive. One really good resource for straps is Walker and Williams. Really good value. Premium Leather Guitar Strap Maker | Walker & Williams

One thing about padded straps is that the lining can be a little slick, which makes it tough to combat neck dive. A trick that I've used several times with those padded straps is to take some gritty sand paper and sand the lining until is roughs up just a bit. You don't want to tear or shred the lining, sanding just enough to provoke some texture.

 

[Outbush]

I am going to repost my photos so I apologise for anyone who is going through the whole post again but they will illustrate what I was saying and what I have found to be the case with quite a few younger players I worked with (but certainly not all!). I really ask the OP to have a look at it all again now in context - and I hope the photos stay this time!

The first 2 photos are of me in a comfortable seated position. Note the bass is not parallel across the body; it is not parallel (or in-line) with my shoulders. You can see in the second photo the wrist is flat and in line the the forearm and very comfortable. The nut is not really far away.



These next two photos show what happens when I stand up and try to hold the bass in the same horizontal position and with the neck pointing out a bit as when seated (photo 1). Notice how there is now a more acute angle at the wrist - it feels kinked when I play like that and gets uncomfortable much more quickly (photo 2).



These final two action photos show what happens when I have the bass more steeply angled up and have the bass in a position than is almost parallel with (in-line with) my shoulders. Notice how the wrist once again is nice and flat with the forearm and the wrinkles or folds are now not visible. The angle of the elbow is almost the same as when seated and the distance to the nut is almost the same as when seated. Also if you look closely you will notice that unlike the photos just above the strap has moved away from my neck. (Incidentally the strap is a GruvGear Duostrap and I bang on about it here on TB all the time because it make the bass feel a third lighter and way more balanced and is great for backs and shoulders).



To achieve this change you will need to focus for a while on consciously changing how you hold you bass when playing standing up but that will become automatic over time. The other thing you will need to do is a little mod that anyone handy with tools will be able to do - moving the back strap button from the traditional position in line with the middle of the bridge 100mm/4" up the bass (See photo below). A great suggestion of how to measure this to suit you personally appeared earlier in this thread. The Duostraps have 2 shoulder straps and one diagonal strap from the top horn to the back strap pin and you can see that diagonal strap in the "normal" strap position in this last photo, however the shoulder straps can be seen attached to the relocated strap pin where a normal single strap would attach. This new position will move the nut up and closer to you allowing all the changes I have mentioned here and in my first post a couple of days ago.

 

[Danny O Danny]

if you dont hold the bass, does it dive?

It doesn't, but all of my basses are well balanced (not neck heavy).

 

[vindibona1]

if you dont hold the bass, does it dive?

Even if the neck does dive naturally if you can eliminate the need to hold the bass' neck up in any manner possible it will increase the fluidity and musicality of your left hand significantly. See @Outbush detailed photos, explanations and duo strap (which I referred to earlier as well).

 

[Danny O Danny]

if you dont hold the bass, does it dive?

I should have added, I also use 4" wide leather straps (from Italia Straps). So if I had a neck heavy bass, the rough underside of the leather strap would grip, and the bass wouldn't slide down neckward. Also a wide strap distributes the weight of the bass onto a wider area of the shoulder.

 

[vindibona1]

@DanTheQuaker You and I think the same way, but I would have found the 4" strap too wide. I use 3.5" straps and because the inside edge presses on my neck I cut a crescent shaped slide out of that area. That's why I like single ply leather.

Below is an image of me strapped up standing. A bit of variation from seated, but neither in the classical position nor in where the bout's cutout would be hard right on my leg either. The neck isn't angled obtrusively up, but just enough. I've tried raising the height, but am most comfortable right there. OP: @10emmanuel Note where the bass' horn lies, over my right breast. [I was in the mirror taking pictures of strap colors for my different basses.] Both in the photo are inexpensive Perri's 3.5" straps. I always wanted a red strap .

 

[MrLenny1]

I use a strap with 2 length adjustments. One is for
sitting and the other when I play standing.

 

[Outbush]

@DanTheQuaker You and I think the same way, but I would have found the 4" strap too wide. I use 3.5" straps and because the inside edge presses on my neck I cut a crescent shaped slide out of that area. That's why I like single ply leather.
View attachment 4688719
Below is an image of me strapped up standing. A bit of variation from seated, but neither in the classical position nor in where the bout's cutout would be hard right on my leg either. The neck isn't angled obtrusively up, but just enough. I've tried raising the height, but am most comfortable right there. OP: @10emmanuel Note where the bass' horn lies, over my right breast. [I was in the mirror taking pictures of strap colors for my different basses.] Both in the photo are inexpensive Perri's 3.5" straps. I always wanted a red strap .

View attachment 4688721

Couple of beautiful basses there!

 

[10emmanuel]

@DanTheQuaker You and I think the same way, but I would have found the 4" strap too wide. I use 3.5" straps and because the inside edge presses on my neck I cut a crescent shaped slide out of that area. That's why I like single ply leather.
View attachment 4688719
Below is an image of me strapped up standing. A bit of variation from seated, but neither in the classical position nor in where the bout's cutout would be hard right on my leg either. The neck isn't angled obtrusively up, but just enough. I've tried raising the height, but am most comfortable right there. OP: @10emmanuel Note where the bass' horn lies, over my right breast. [I was in the mirror taking pictures of strap colors for my different basses.] Both in the photo are inexpensive Perri's 3.5" straps. I always wanted a red strap .

View attachment 4688721

so I possible solution would be eliminate de diving that obligates me to hold the neck from diving, which will give me totally freedom fingering across the neck and I can achieve that changing the tuners or/and with a double strap or re positioning the bass by adding a straplock somewhere behind my bass. (?)

 

[10emmanuel]

I am going to repost my photos so I apologise for anyone who is going through the whole post again but they will illustrate what I was saying and what I have found to be the case with quite a few younger players I worked with (but certainly not all!). I really ask the OP to have a look at it all again now in context - and I hope the photos stay this time!

The first 2 photos are of me in a comfortable seated position. Note the bass is not parallel across the body; it is not parallel (or in-line) with my shoulders. You can see in the second photo the wrist is flat and in line the the forearm and very comfortable. The nut is not really far away.

View attachment 4687751 View attachment 4687752

These next two photos show what happens when I stand up and try to hold the bass in the same horizontal position and with the neck pointing out a bit as when seated (photo 1). Notice how there is now a more acute angle at the wrist - it feels kinked when I play like that and gets uncomfortable much more quickly (photo 2).

View attachment 4687753 View attachment 4687754

These final two action photos show what happens when I have the bass more steeply angled up and have the bass in a position than is almost parallel with (in-line with) my shoulders. Notice how the wrist once again is nice and flat with the forearm and the wrinkles or folds are now not visible. The angle of the elbow is almost the same as when seated and the distance to the nut is almost the same as when seated. Also if you look closely you will notice that unlike the photos just above the strap has moved away from my neck. (Incidentally the strap is a GruvGear Duostrap and I bang on about it here on TB all the time because it make the bass feel a third lighter and way more balanced and is great for backs and shoulders).

View attachment 4687756 View attachment 4687757

To achieve this change you will need to focus for a while on consciously changing how you hold you bass when playing standing up but that will become automatic over time. The other thing you will need to do is a little mod that anyone handy with tools will be able to do - moving the back strap button from the traditional position in line with the middle of the bridge 100mm/4" up the bass (See photo below). A great suggestion of how to measure this to suit you personally appeared earlier in this thread. The Duostraps have 2 shoulder straps and one diagonal strap from the top horn to the back strap pin and you can see that diagonal strap in the "normal" strap position in this last photo, however the shoulder straps can be seen attached to the relocated strap pin where a normal single strap would attach. This new position will move the nut up and closer to you allowing all the changes I have mentioned here and in my first post a couple of days ago.

View attachment 4687759

Awesome explination, thanks!! so I possible solution would be eliminate de diving that obligates me to hold the neck from diving, which will give me totally freedom fingering across the neck and I can achieve that changing the tuners or/and with a double strap or re positioning the bass by adding a straplock somewhere behind my bass. (?)