Fender P and J aren't dated. They're classics, time doesn't impact them anymore.
This is dated :
This is not :
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Another Carvin model bites the dust.
- Thread starter pica
- Start date
This is dated :
This is not :
Summary: Carvin didn't actually discontinue anything. Active electronics are now optional on all LB models, making the LB20 and LB70 100% the same bass.
They just stopped calling the passive LB bases a different model name.
Totally worth a zillion page thread.
They just stopped calling the passive LB bases a different model name.
Totally worth a zillion page thread.
SirMjac28
Patiently Waiting For The Next British Invasion
They CNC the wood parts and use hipshot bridges. Tuners could be foreign. Pickups are made in factory, or at least used to be made in factory.
Carvin makes awesome stuff. I kind of wish they still had all their older 80s/90s models and features, but companies evolve over time that's just the way it is.
Do they really not do XBs any more? Seems strange since it's literally just a long scale LB. I thought the LB20 had been gone since the late 80s/early 90s though, they certainly didn't promote those very much. I actually have a ~30 year old LB20 fretless. Very basic just a maple slab with an ebony board and 2 Js with volume blend and tone. Needs a neck treatment from living with roundwounds for so long (flats on it now) and some electronics touching up and setup, but still a solid great sounding bass. It's actually on eternal loan from my friend who bought it as his first good bass in the mid 90s for about $450 or 500 I think.
The reason Carvins resale value is on the low side, is because people who are interested in them know they can get a brand new one with whatever options they want for not a lot of money. And since their list of options is so broad, the chances that someone will be selling one with the exact options you want is slim. Having said that though, when I had my AE185-12 (tele thinline style "acoustic"/electric 12 string), I paid about $1100 for it with a nice tweed case, fully optioned out (beautiful walnut top with a satin finish, birdseye maple fb, all the electronics options). That was a ridiciulous nice guitar. I only sold it because I needed the money. And I got like 875 for it. So 80% for a 5 year old, highly niche guitar is damn good.
Anyway, while reading this thread I was curious so I spec'd out a 6 string bass on their site. For an LB76 loaded with optiony goodness including walnut top, stainless frets, upgraded pickups (still passive though), etc... and a hard case, it came out to $1700. There is no way in hell I could get a similar bass brand new for that amount of money. Used I probably still couldn't.
I'm always surprised more people aren't into carvin, I think it's just because they've never tried one. Or if they have maybe it was some beat up used one that someone was selling. I think they SHOULD have a SMALL network of flagship stores in key cities (LA, NY, Chicago, Houston, Miami, maybe a couple others like Denver or Seattle) dotted across the country, so that they're physically accessible to the most people. But they should be run more as "demo showrooms" rather than retail operations. Certainly they could sell amps, accessories, etc... and maybe have a selection of "in stock" instruments. Make the whole place super player friendly so it's a place where people can go to fall in love with Carvin even if they don't order an instrument that day. I think that could be a huge benefit to their business. Because people KNOW about them, but they haven't TRIED them (certainly not in a controlled setting). So they don't need ADVERTISING, although that helps too. They just need to get these things in people's hands.
Do they really not do XBs any more? Seems strange since it's literally just a long scale LB. I thought the LB20 had been gone since the late 80s/early 90s though, they certainly didn't promote those very much. I actually have a ~30 year old LB20 fretless. Very basic just a maple slab with an ebony board and 2 Js with volume blend and tone. Needs a neck treatment from living with roundwounds for so long (flats on it now) and some electronics touching up and setup, but still a solid great sounding bass. It's actually on eternal loan from my friend who bought it as his first good bass in the mid 90s for about $450 or 500 I think.
The reason Carvins resale value is on the low side, is because people who are interested in them know they can get a brand new one with whatever options they want for not a lot of money. And since their list of options is so broad, the chances that someone will be selling one with the exact options you want is slim. Having said that though, when I had my AE185-12 (tele thinline style "acoustic"/electric 12 string), I paid about $1100 for it with a nice tweed case, fully optioned out (beautiful walnut top with a satin finish, birdseye maple fb, all the electronics options). That was a ridiciulous nice guitar. I only sold it because I needed the money. And I got like 875 for it. So 80% for a 5 year old, highly niche guitar is damn good.
Anyway, while reading this thread I was curious so I spec'd out a 6 string bass on their site. For an LB76 loaded with optiony goodness including walnut top, stainless frets, upgraded pickups (still passive though), etc... and a hard case, it came out to $1700. There is no way in hell I could get a similar bass brand new for that amount of money. Used I probably still couldn't.
I'm always surprised more people aren't into carvin, I think it's just because they've never tried one. Or if they have maybe it was some beat up used one that someone was selling. I think they SHOULD have a SMALL network of flagship stores in key cities (LA, NY, Chicago, Houston, Miami, maybe a couple others like Denver or Seattle) dotted across the country, so that they're physically accessible to the most people. But they should be run more as "demo showrooms" rather than retail operations. Certainly they could sell amps, accessories, etc... and maybe have a selection of "in stock" instruments. Make the whole place super player friendly so it's a place where people can go to fall in love with Carvin even if they don't order an instrument that day. I think that could be a huge benefit to their business. Because people KNOW about them, but they haven't TRIED them (certainly not in a controlled setting). So they don't need ADVERTISING, although that helps too. They just need to get these things in people's hands.
The Carvin bass tuners are Gohtos, which would make them Japanese. Really nice tuners, actually.
I think Carvin is desperately trying to claim an image and status that the marketplace is not yet willing to grant them.
When it comes to marketing, working to create "pull" is far more effective than trying to "push."
I think they're going about it the wrong way.
When it comes to marketing, working to create "pull" is far more effective than trying to "push."
I think they're going about it the wrong way.
Last edited:
Yeah I can understand that but if the bass doesn't play well nor feel solid, the sound nor the look will mater.
Also, no matter how much you pay for you Carvin/Keisel you still have a 1000$ bass with expensive wood ... it is still a 1000$ worth bass. It won't play better nor it won,t sound better because you spended more.
It is like buying a Honda for 10 000$ and put 10 000$ in custom part to make it looks better, it is still a Honda ...
Last edited:
The best bang for the buck for a Carvin / Kiesel is to get the plain jane model and avoid the flashy options. That's what pushes the price up $1000 quickly and that's also the money that you'll eat should you sell the bass later.
SirMjac28
Patiently Waiting For The Next British Invasion
But they sell these passive LB's from the LB70's former base price, not the LB20's. In effect they raised the price while making it appear that they discontinued a model.
Cool! Never really thought of it that way...
I think I get it.
Sort of like a Model-T Ford.
So old that it no longer looks dated and has moved into the category of classic.
I think I get it.
Sort of like a Model-T Ford.
So old that it no longer looks dated and has moved into the category of classic.
Fender P and J aren't dated. They're classics, time doesn't impact them anymore.
This is dated :
This is not :
Interestingly, there has been *no* news here in their home town about them downsizing. I suspect much of this has to do with what looks like the family "issues" that have led to the Kiesel spin-off thing.
Yeah, the guitar side is ramping up. Longer build times now. They may be catering to he metal crowd, but the metal crowd is buying guitars apparently.
"Classic" means it's old and you like it. "Dated" means it's old and you don't like it. No intrinsic definition, it's down to the opinion of the person. One person's classic is another person's old and boring. One person's dated is another person's innovative or experimental. No offense.
That still doesn't answer the question.
How is it that making a B40 in the USA should cost any less to manufacture than a Fender Jazz in the USA? From a cost standpoint either Carvin is/was losing money or Fender makes the Jazz for $300 and is ripping people off. There is no difference whatsoever in production value of either bass. For either one you have to make a body, sand and finish it, make a neck, fret and finish it, make or buy electronics, install electronics and assemble the whole thing. There is no "special sauce" in a Fender Jazz that costs more to make. It's a body made of mostly cheap wood, a neck that some are great and some not so much, and pickups I would argue probably come from the exact same place Carvin pickups come from.
So, answer my question. How can Carvin possibly turn a profit from making a bass that is identical to a Fender Jazz from a manufacturing standpoint and sell it for around half or less than what Fender does? More importantly, WHY should they? (from their standpoint anyway)
(Answer: They can't)
You might notice that Carvin isn't selling basses for half of what Fender does. A Carvin JB-4 (their current take on a jazz bass) starts at $929 for a totally vanilla passive configuration. Add $90 for a hard case, and you're at $1019.00 (they won't ship a bass without a case. You can get a soft case for $30 less if you want)
That's only about 30% less than an American Standard Jazz.
Totally coincidentally, 30% is roughly the same as dealer markup.
So no, they can't sell instruments for half of what Fender does. Nor do they. What they do is :
- Not have a dealer marking their product up by roughtly a third
- Have a very efficient operation by not having any inventory of completed product to speak of, and selling nearly every instrument the moment its completed
- Not spending zillions of dollars on ad copy
- Not lending Guitar Center millions of dollars
- Not needing to service enormous amounts of debt on the botched acquisition of Kaman Music
The Carvin operation looks a lot like how G&L is run, but minus the dealer network standing between the factory and the customer.
The two I've owned may not have had "personality", whatever that means, but they both sat in the mix of a band perfectly - which is all I care about. A lot of the "personality" disappears in a mix anyway.
