Anti-smacking laws

[ric1312]

I don't understand how hitting your child will teach them something other than "if someone does something you don't like, you hit them". It's especially weird (and very ironic) if you spank/smack your child for hitting someone.

On a phycological level it doesn't teach them that. Children don't see their parents as equals. It teaches them, "I do wrong I feel a little pain." Pain is the greatest teacher in life.

Do you remember the first time you burnt your hand on stove or something like that as a child. I'll bet it wasn't soon you did it again.

I can still remember a spanking I got from my father at 4 and why I got spanked, and that I never did it again in front of him.

 

[FL Knifemaker]

My kids and I shoot paintballs at each other, that hurts more than a smack

I don't smack my kids, I've never really had to. Grabbing a handfull of ear and twisting it works much better

 

[kserg]

You obviously don't have kids, or have some freaky ones that when you are nice and tell them to behave they instantly respond.

The kids you see out somewhere running around crying havoc, yelling and screaming and misbehaving are the ones that the parents were to wimply to lay down the law and spank them. Those kids later become the teenagers causing trouble.

You can bet that when you see a parent tell his child to stifle and he does so quickly, that that parent gives a spanking when the child doesn't listen.

I can't count the number of times I've seen some mother or father yelling repeatedly at their child and the kid just ignoring them and continuing to cause trouble. They aren't adults for christ sake, you can't reason with them. They don't have that capacity yet. You tell them once and if they don't comply the spanking should come.

I don't mean beating. theres a huge difference between beating and simply spanking or taking a belt to an older childs behind.

Mencia may be comedian, but he hit the nail on the head. Spanking teaches kids that bad actions have consequences that they don't like. You can see by the number of young men in U.S. jails the number of parents that did not instill the concept of, "consequences," in their children.

Which is another point. In the adult world if you F up no one coddles you and says, "please don't do that honey." You get the preverbial smack right away. It's best kids learn that early.

Very young kids don't have the mental capacity of adults and will forget things seconds after you tell them. A little spanking makes them remember.

You are confusing discipline with reasoning. Reason must be ALWAYS present in raising a child, weather you use spanking as discipline or not.

The parents you are talking about don't use reasoning, they use bribery. This works just like spanking your kids with out reasoning. Doesn't.

I've seen kids who never been spanked in their lives grow up to be great people. I also seen kids that been spanked or worse grow up to be total scum just like the kids who are bright by their parents and vise versa. It's not the discipline or lack of that that raises the kid, it is in-fact reasoning.

Now i am not saying spanking is wrong, if a parent uses spanking with reasoning it works great, some parents choose to do that, some parents don't, however you ALWAYS need some communication with kid while you are raising them. Any kind of punishment needs an explanation and talk/reasoning after the fact.

Just spanking doesn't solve jack, just like any other method with out the reasoning. you know what just spanking a kids teaches them? It teaches them that if you get caught you get in trouble, if you don't, guess what... NOTHING HAPPENS. So with out reasoning and just spanking it makes them that much better being a scum. Kids are not dogs, just rubbing their face into their own poo won't teach them not to do it.

Which brings back to the post you first quoted. In words of Carlos, his dad spanked him. Some how that scumbag still goes around stealing things. Care to tell us how that happened? Oh yeah, no reasoning.


Oh and if we are going to quite comedians around how about this one:

Peter Gibbons: The thing is, Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care.
Bob Porter: Don't... don't care?
Peter Gibbons: It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime; so where's the motivation? And here's something else, Bob: I have eight different bosses right now.
Bob Slydell: I beg your pardon?
Peter Gibbons: Eight bosses.
Bob Slydell: Eight?
Peter Gibbons: Eight, Bob. So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled; that, and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.

What i am saying with that quote is that with out reasoning your kid is just going to work that hard at not getting caught, but nothing more. it may be just a comedy, but it "hit the nail on the head."

Cheers

 

[txbasschik]

New Zealand is currently working though some anti-smacking legislation. there seems to be a bit of opposition to it though. Personally, I couldn't bring myself to smack a child. But it seems the law may pass at this stage.

I know there are some other countries that have anti-smacking laws. Do you think it's had a affect on violence in society?

Lastly, are you for or against smacking of childern?

I swatted butts and smacked little hands, when my kids were younger. If they wanted to put their hands somewhere they shouldn't, and they wouldn't listen to "no", they got their hand smacked. And they learned.

And the government has no business telling me I can't. They're my kids, not the government's. If I lived in NZ, I'd tell my government to shove it.;

Should I let my daughter pull a pot of boiling liquid on herself, or smack her hand so she won't touch the pot handle? The answer is, "Smack that hand."

I don't care if my opinion makes non-spankers angry. I do not care if you like me less because of this. This is how I raise my kids, as do most other parents I know. If you don't want to, that's fine. They're *your* kids, and you will raise them as you wish. But don't tell me how to raise mine. And, if the government wishes to do so, they can come arrest me, because I'm not allowing them to tell me how to raise my kids, either.

My kids are too old for spanking anymore. Past about 6 or 7, they should have learned to listen by then, and if they don't, you can take their video game controllers away, and block them from the computer, and ground them. They're not trying to grab dangerous things, or running into the street, anymore. At this age, hey, you don't wanna clean your room? Fine. I will get my leaf rake, use it on everything that is on your floor, put that pile into a trash bag, and put that bag in the garbage. I don't care if I have just tossed your brand-new PS2. You won't be getting another one from me, if I had to do this. I've done it before, and I'll do it again, and they know it.

Cherie

 

[Geoff St. Germaine]

You obviously don't have kids, or have some freaky ones that when you are nice and tell them to behave they instantly respond.

There are ways of teaching other than punishment? Have you ever read or taken any courses in psychology. The evidence for punishment being the worst form of teaching is overwhelming.

The kids you see out somewhere running around crying havoc, yelling and screaming and misbehaving are the ones that the parents were to wimply to lay down the law and spank them. Those kids later become the teenagers causing trouble.

No, these are parents who do not care about their child's behaviour or at least don't care enough to come up with an effective solution. To suggest that the only solution is to hit the child is narrow-minded.

You can bet that when you see a parent tell his child to stifle and he does so quickly, that that parent gives a spanking when the child doesn't listen.

I can't count the number of times I've seen some mother or father yelling repeatedly at their child and the kid just ignoring them and continuing to cause trouble. They aren't adults for christ sake, you can't reason with them. They don't have that capacity yet. You tell them once and if they don't comply the spanking should come.

Who said the alternative is yelling?

I don't mean beating. theres a huge difference between beating and simply spanking or taking a belt to an older childs behind.

Mencia may be comedian, but he hit the nail on the head. Spanking teaches kids that bad actions have consequences that they don't like. You can see by the number of young men in U.S. jails the number of parents that did not instill the concept of, "consequences," in their children.

My point with Mencia is that it's been demonstrated that he steals material from other comedians. I guess he should have been spanked harder.

Which is another point. In the adult world if you F up no one coddles you and says, "please don't do that honey." You get the preverbial smack right away. It's best kids learn that early.

Very young kids don't have the mental capacity of adults and will forget things seconds after you tell them. A little spanking makes them remember.

Now the alternative to spanking is coddling? I suggest you do a little reading on operant conditioning to see how learning actually occurs.

As far as mental capacity goes, I've trained retrievers (dogs) with my father without ever having to hit the dog. Undoubtedly a dog has a lower mental capacity than even a human child. One of our dogs was a field trial champion. Why does lowered intelligence all of a sudden require hitting in order to learn?

 

[Ray Holt]

I acted up at the dinner table once when I was little, and my gave me one smack across the face.... I didn't act up at the dinner table anymore!!!

I definitely don't think really beating your child is alright, but you've got to have discipline. I'm sure there might be better ways to do it, but like I said one good smack has worked wonders, I've seen it with my siblings too. At the time I was pissed that I got smacked, but today I appreciate it.

Nowadays most any family I see makes me wonder who's in charge, the parents or the kid?? I don't have any kids yet, but I know that parenting is not easy... but most of the parenting I see these days is just despicable!!

 

[Diggler]

"I've good kids, I love my kids. I try to bring them up the right way, not spanking them. I find that I don't have to spank them. I find that waving the gun around pretty much gets the same job done!"

-Denis Leary

I am pro-spanking, whether it be my kids or my wife.

 

[AdlerAugen]

What i am saying with that quote is that with out reasoning your kid is just going to work that hard at not getting caught, but nothing more. it may be just a comedy, but it "hit the nail on the head."

That's why ya work harder to catch 'em...and don't give them the opportunities to do the crime in the first place.


oh and to add something new to the conversation:

"Spare the rod and spoil the child"

 

[ric1312]

There are ways of teaching other than punishment? Have you ever read or taken any courses in psychology. The evidence for punishment being the worst form of teaching is overwhelming.



No, these are parents who do not care about their child's behaviour or at least don't care enough to come up with an effective solution. To suggest that the only solution is to hit the child is narrow-minded.



Who said the alternative is yelling?



My point with Mencia is that it's been demonstrated that he steals material from other comedians. I guess he should have been spanked harder.



Now the alternative to spanking is coddling? I suggest you do a little reading on operant conditioning to see how learning actually occurs.

As far as mental capacity goes, I've trained retrievers (dogs) with my father without ever having to hit the dog. Undoubtedly a dog has a lower mental capacity than even a human child. One of our dogs was a field trial champion. Why does lowered intelligence all of a sudden require hitting in order to learn?

So, lets say you have a 6 year old that is being beligerant and will not listen to a thing you say and is refusing your instruction. No amount of threatening with nappy time, or taking away the playstation will make him quit. Often times children are just checking out the boundaries and seeing how much they can get away with. What do you do then? Beg your own child to do what you want. Bribe them and make them the one in control?

I'm not saying that there aren't alternatives to smacking or spanking. Just that sometimes it's needed.

When I was a toddler my mother used to punish me by making me stand in the corner for however long. I hated that. Now you might say that as a kid I could have just refused to stand in the corner. But, by then I knew better that the next step for not listening to mom was a spanking from dad when he got home from work and I didn't want that.

On the dog thing. Not all dogs are the same. I've had dogs I didn't have to hit. Just a lowering of the tone of my voice or inticement with treats to remember commands. But, some dogs will keep doing things until you give them a swat with the paper. I've got three little 20 pound dogs right now. The first one only needed a little swatting to keep her from chewing on furniture legs and told a stern no to remember the command. My next dog never needed a swat she learns commands very quickly, but still fear the paper because she sees what the other two get when they get out of hand.

And then there is my pug mix who is very smart and very willfull. I had to smack him every day for three months until he got the hint that furniture was not chewable. He still challeges me when I tell him no, he barks at me like a willfull teen. But, they all become compliant when the paper is whipped out.

O, and spanking or smacking a child is not the same as hitting.

 

[Bad Brains]

More people need to hit their kids, hard.

 

[Krisfield]

If I lived in NZ, I'd tell my government to shove it.

There are alot of people who oppose this legislation. Even taking to the streets in protest. I do welcome the debt on smacking though. Whether the government can dictate on how to discipline your child remains to be seen if it makes a difference in society as a whole.

But in Talkbass land, it appears smacking/spanking is approved as the poll shows.

 

[Geoff St. Germaine]

So, lets say you have a 6 year old that is being beligerant and will not listen to a thing you say and is refusing your instruction. No amount of threatening with nappy time, or taking away the playstation will make him quit. Often times children are just checking out the boundaries and seeing how much they can get away with. What do you do then? Beg your own child to do what you want. Bribe them and make them the one in control?

I'm not saying that there aren't alternatives to smacking or spanking. Just that sometimes it's needed.

When I was a toddler my mother used to punish me by making me stand in the corner for however long. I hated that. Now you might say that as a kid I could have just refused to stand in the corner. But, by then I knew better that the next step for not listening to mom was a spanking from dad when he got home from work and I didn't want that.

On the dog thing. Not all dogs are the same. I've had dogs I didn't have to hit. Just a lowering of the tone of my voice or inticement with treats to remember commands. But, some dogs will keep doing things until you give them a swat with the paper. I've got three little 20 pound dogs right now. The first one only needed a little swatting to keep her from chewing on furniture legs and told a stern no to remember the command. My next dog never needed a swat she learns commands very quickly, but still fear the paper because she sees what the other two get when they get out of hand.

And then there is my pug mix who is very smart and very willfull. I had to smack him every day for three months until he got the hint that furniture was not chewable. He still challeges me when I tell him no, he barks at me like a willfull teen. But, they all become compliant when the paper is whipped out.

Again, you are not coming up with realistic solutions. The only alternative to begging is spanking or smacking? I'm not saying that you can't smack/spank (I'm avoiding hit because it has a connotation to you that I'm not aware of). I'm saying that it isn't the only way and it certainly is not necessary.

O, and spanking or smacking a child is not the same as hitting.

Not according to a dictionary, in fact they are both forms of hitting. But I'll use the term corporal punishment from here on out.

 

[ric1312]

Again, you are not coming up with realistic solutions. The only alternative to begging is spanking or smacking? I'm not saying that you can't smack/spank (I'm avoiding hit because it has a connotation to you that I'm not aware of). I'm saying that it isn't the only way and it certainly is not necessary.



Not according to a dictionary, in fact they are both forms of hitting. But I'll use the term corporal punishment from here on out.

You didn't answer my question. What do you do if a child absolutely won't listen and continues bad behavior no matter what you say to him/her, or threaten them with?

Again, we get back to consequences. A willfull child that has no deterant for not listening their parents will walk all over them and ignore there requests to behave.

A kid should know that a parent is ready to back up threats of a spanking.

Sure some kids are more well behaved, usually the kids that get plenty of attention and not just babysitted by the tv or playstation, but some need to be shown where the line is.

The dictionary may describe a smack as a hit, but most poeple think of a hit as closed fist and a serious beating.

If I were to go somewhere with other parents and say so and so hit their kid, they'd all be like OMG. If I said so and so spanked his kid, they'd ask what the kid was getting punished for.

 

[Geoff St. Germaine]

You didn't answer my question. What do you do if a child absolutely won't listen and continues bad behavior no matter what you say to him/her, or threaten them with?

Again, we get back to consequences. A willfull child that has no deterant for not listening their parents will walk all over them and ignore there requests to behave.

A kid should know that a parent is ready to back up threats of a spanking.

Sure some kids are more well behaved, usually the kids that get plenty of attention and not just babysitted by the tv or playstation, but some need to be shown where the line is.

The dictionary may describe a smack as a hit, but most poeple think of a hit as closed fist and a serious beating.

If I were to go somewhere with other parents and say so and so hit their kid, they'd all be like OMG. If I said so and so spanked his kid, they'd ask what the kid was getting punished for.

How old is the child? If your child is 6 and "absolutely won't listen to you" then what have you been doing for the past 6 years? By 6 years of age the child should understand who is in charge. Boundaries have to be set from a very young age. As for an aversive stimulus, time outs have been shown to be very effective when used properly. This would include it being enforced and then giving a proper explanation of the incorrect behaviour and also what the correct behaviour is. My next door neighbours have 3 daughters, they are 6, 4 and 3 and are extremely well behaved. My wife and I have babysat them probably a dozen times and they listen. Maybe it's the wife's psychological magic (she's a psychologist, like my wife incidentally) but they do not have to smack, spank or otherwise hit their children for punishment for them to behave properly. Note that I'm using hit in the generic sense and not a child abuse sense. I have two friends from growing up who were similarly not smacked/spanked by their parents and one is a high school teacher and the other is doing a Master's degree in Africa working with the bushmen to track endangered species. They certainly didn't turn out to be delinquents, their parents simply applied different forms of conditioning successfully.

Anyway, the point is, by applying proper conditioning in the first place most punishment scenarios can be avoided. Punishment is so difficult because what winds up happening in a lot of instances is that the child tries to find ways to avoid the punishment rather than engaging in the correct behaviour from the start. If you don't believe me try google scholar.

Regardless my only point is that you don't have to apply corporal punishment to a child. I don't see why you find it so difficult to accept. People have done it successfully. If you do it with your children, that is fine... I didn't say you shouldn't my parents did and I think that I turned out fine, I simply said there are other ways and that's what I will intend with my children (and our dog once we get the puppy in August).

 

[Ryan L.]

I swatted butts and smacked little hands, when my kids were younger. If they wanted to put their hands somewhere they shouldn't, and they wouldn't listen to "no", they got their hand smacked. And they learned.

And the government has no business telling me I can't. They're my kids, not the government's. If I lived in NZ, I'd tell my government to shove it.;

Should I let my daughter pull a pot of boiling liquid on herself, or smack her hand so she won't touch the pot handle? The answer is, "Smack that hand."

I don't care if my opinion makes non-spankers angry. I do not care if you like me less because of this. This is how I raise my kids, as do most other parents I know. If you don't want to, that's fine. They're *your* kids, and you will raise them as you wish. But don't tell me how to raise mine. And, if the government wishes to do so, they can come arrest me, because I'm not allowing them to tell me how to raise my kids, either.

My kids are too old for spanking anymore. Past about 6 or 7, they should have learned to listen by then, and if they don't, you can take their video game controllers away, and block them from the computer, and ground them. They're not trying to grab dangerous things, or running into the street, anymore. At this age, hey, you don't wanna clean your room? Fine. I will get my leaf rake, use it on everything that is on your floor, put that pile into a trash bag, and put that bag in the garbage. I don't care if I have just tossed your brand-new PS2. You won't be getting another one from me, if I had to do this. I've done it before, and I'll do it again, and they know it.

Cherie

+1. Well put, Cherie.

 

[Relic]

Sorry in advance as this may come across sounding angry and maybe not PC - but- what the h*ll ever happened to common sense!!??
If a kid needs to be spanked, they need to be spanked, if they need to be simply scolded then you scold. Chances are -if you are "pro spanking" -you will rarely if ever spank your kid as the threat of getting a spanking is often far more potent than the spanking itself. It's a tool, just like scolding is, rewarding is, reasoning is when possible, even a nice hug and praise... you use all the tools in your inventory + wisdom to know when to use which tool.

If you need "Big Brother" to tell you how to raise your kids, then you shouldnt have kids to begin with. Advice and help on raising your kids are grandma and grandpa's job - your family's job, not the government's job who do not know your kids nor ever care to.

*getting off of soap box now, while angrily kicking it to pieces*

 

[IconBasser]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ric1312
You obviously don't have kids, or have some freaky ones that when you are nice and tell them to behave they instantly respond.

There are ways of teaching other than punishment? Have you ever read or taken any courses in psychology. The evidence for punishment being the worst form of teaching is overwhelming.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ric1312
The kids you see out somewhere running around crying havoc, yelling and screaming and misbehaving are the ones that the parents were to wimply to lay down the law and spank them. Those kids later become the teenagers causing trouble.

No, these are parents who do not care about their child's behaviour or at least don't care enough to come up with an effective solution. To suggest that the only solution is to hit the child is narrow-minded.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ric1312
You can bet that when you see a parent tell his child to stifle and he does so quickly, that that parent gives a spanking when the child doesn't listen.

I can't count the number of times I've seen some mother or father yelling repeatedly at their child and the kid just ignoring them and continuing to cause trouble. They aren't adults for christ sake, you can't reason with them. They don't have that capacity yet. You tell them once and if they don't comply the spanking should come.

Who said the alternative is yelling?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ric1312
I don't mean beating. theres a huge difference between beating and simply spanking or taking a belt to an older childs behind.

Mencia may be comedian, but he hit the nail on the head. Spanking teaches kids that bad actions have consequences that they don't like. You can see by the number of young men in U.S. jails the number of parents that did not instill the concept of, "consequences," in their children.

My point with Mencia is that it's been demonstrated that he steals material from other comedians. I guess he should have been spanked harder.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ric1312
Which is another point. In the adult world if you F up no one coddles you and says, "please don't do that honey." You get the preverbial smack right away. It's best kids learn that early.

Very young kids don't have the mental capacity of adults and will forget things seconds after you tell them. A little spanking makes them remember.

Now the alternative to spanking is coddling? I suggest you do a little reading on operant conditioning to see how learning actually occurs.

As far as mental capacity goes, I've trained retrievers (dogs) with my father without ever having to hit the dog. Undoubtedly a dog has a lower mental capacity than even a human child. One of our dogs was a field trial champion. Why does lowered intelligence all of a sudden require hitting in order to learn?

Link Removed

 

[WalterBush]

I find smacking to be a good alternative to letting loose spoiled, disrespectful, and potentially socially deviant kids loose on the world.

Decades ago, the anti-spanking movement was started. Corporal punishment was removed in public schools. Now look at our public school system, the kids it's turning out, the quality of education, the drug/pregnancy/violence problems it has almost system-wide. Compare the percentage of drug use, lethal violence, and teen pregnancy with the percentages from the '40s, '50s, and '60s, and then tell me that smacking a misbehaving kid is a bad idea.

 

[Geoff St. Germaine]

I find smacking to be a good alternative to letting loose spoiled, disrespectful, and potentially socially deviant kids loose on the world.

Decades ago, the anti-spanking movement was started. Corporal punishment was removed in public schools. Now look at our public school system, the kids it's turning out, the quality of education, the drug/pregnancy/violence problems it has almost system-wide. Compare the percentage of drug use, lethal violence, and teen pregnancy with the percentages from the '40s, '50s, and '60s, and then tell me that smacking a misbehaving kid is a bad idea.

There are obviously factors that you are missing in your analysis. For instance, take the high school I went to in a small town of 5000 people. My school was ranked 29th on the provincial grade 12 exams the year I graduated and all but one school ahead of us was a private school. We had 75 graduating students of which there were 0 teen pregnancies, 0 cases of lethal violence (worst things that happened was a fight in the parking lot once or twice a month) and all but 2 students did some form of post secondary education. No one was smacked in that school but somehow we seemed not to turn out too many delinquents. How do you explain that?

IMO it is more a case of kids not getting any rules at home. It's been demostrated that children do not have to be smacked or spanked in order to be taught to obey rules and learn what the parent's want to teach. The problem is when parents do not enforce rules in the first place and let children have/do whatever they want. There are many ways to properly discipline and raise a child and the problem is that some parents are either too lazy or don't have the time to do any of them.

 

[Relic]

IMO it is more a case of kids not getting any rules at home. It's been demostrated that children do not have to be smacked or spanked in order to be taught to obey rules and learn what the parent's want to teach. The problem is when parents do not enforce rules in the first place and let children have/do whatever they want. There are many ways to properly discipline and raise a child and the problem is that some parents are either too lazy or don't have the time to do any of them.

Amen brother, you're last sentence sums it up perfectly. This applies whether you are pro or against spanking and is the real issue behind this all.