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Antoniotsai Ritter copies!

#81
Brad Johnson said:
I'm not following the logic... it's okay to copy if it "improves' on the original? So cheaper copies = bad, more expensive copies okay?

I'm just curious at the logic on this one.

Do you really think anyone is going to confuse these basses with real Ritters and that will somehow affect his reputation? I honestly can't see that.
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I'm not sure that the logic is that difficult. When someone buys a copy watch, they are likely to represent it as the real thing (or if they buy one by mistake from eBay they will think they have the real thing). When it doesn't work, they will blame the real company.

Will they confuse these particular basses with Jens' ... probably not, as they do look cheaper even in photos. But Ritters are so rare that there are likely to be some people that pass off the copy as a Ritter (in which case someone else will say that Jens is making junk)

And if Tsai can get away with 'almost copies' of Ritters basses, all he has to do is ask one of the 300 or so Chinese shops to exactly duplicate the Ritter look (it will take about two days) and Tsai will start selling copies that look the same (until they crack and fall apart). And these will start showing up on eBay. And Jens will end up spending his time chasing fakes rather than making guitars.

Check all of these sources in China (just a few from alibaba)

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Heibei Shenglun Musical Instrument Co., Ltd.
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Beijing Tongyun Musical Instruments Firm
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#82
*rant on*

I look at it this way, I would never buy a Rollex, simply because I'm allergic to their prices, but I'll buy a cheap watch and it might be one of these Rollex copies. I can't see how could someone cancel their check to Mr. Ritter and go and buy one of Mr. Tsai's creations. If someone wants a Ritter, they will buy a Ritter.

We also better start working on shutting down Rondo and SX since they might hurt Fender and Sadowsky's sales. We better start acting now. You know that they ARE copies! Copies I tel you!!!!

What about that other thread with the guy making a Jaco copy and using Fender logo and everything, but no, that one is expensive, it's a work of art, this guy is not in some country in the middle of nowhere so therefore it's OK to make copies.

*rant off*
 
#84
westland said:
When someone buys a copy watch, they are likely to represent it as the real thing (or if they buy one by mistake from eBay they will think they have the real thing). When it doesn't work, they will blame the real company.

Will they confuse these particular basses with Jens' ... probably not, as they do look cheaper even in photos. But Ritters are so rare that there are likely to be some people that pass off the copy as a Ritter (in which case someone else will say that Jens is making junk)
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Again, fake Rolex watches for example actually say "Rolex" on the face and often look exactly like a real Rolex. And this does cause a problem with buying over the internet (on ebay for example) where it can be very difficult if not impossible to tell the difference through photos alone. The difference is that these basses are NOT exact copies and could not be mistaken for the real thing by anyone who is at all familiar with Ritter basses. And they are NOT being marketed or presented as being the real thing.

And again, I really don't see anyone trying to pass off one of these as a real Ritter, and then the fool who buys it as such will blame Jens for making junk. Most people are smarter than that and would be quick to figure out that these are not $3,000+ basses. I don't know how you could possibly get the two confused, especially when they aren't even being advertised as Ritter or even "Ritter Style" basses. I still can't see how these basses could possibly hurt Jen's sales in any way.

IF people start trying to sell these basses on ebay, calling them real Ritter basses, or putting the name "Ritter" anywhere in the auction, THEN I would have a problem with the people trying to sell it by using Ritter's name, but I wouldn't have a problem with the bass itself if all stays the same. If they made the pickups, bridge, and headstock the same as a Ritter, only then would I have a problem with the bass itself. But as is, I don't understand how you could confuse them.
 
#85
westland said:
I'm not sure that the logic is that difficult. When someone buys a copy watch, they are likely to represent it as the real thing (or if they buy one by mistake from eBay they will think they have the real thing). When it doesn't work, they will blame the real company.
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It is that difficult if you seriously think anyone other than the completely and utterly clueless (no offense to folks who fit that description) is going to look at any of these basses and think "That's a bargain price for a Ritter". Even if they did a perfect silkscreen of the logo, do you seriously contend that someone who is genuinely in the market for a Ritter...

This really has little if anything in common with fake watches. Look at the basses in question.

Someone who has a clue about Ritters but has no internet access and might buy one of these out of the trunk of someone's car... caveat emptor. It'll be a relatively cheap lesson on being a lazy buyer.

Will they confuse these particular basses with Jens' ... probably not, as they do look cheaper even in photos. But Ritters are so rare that there are likely to be some people that pass off the copy as a Ritter (in which case someone else will say that Jens is making junk).
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I just don't see that happening... and typically the people who "think" they're getting a killer deal on the real thing are usually buying what they think is gear of questionable ownership... aka STOLEN. They get what they deserve IMO

And if Tsai can get away with 'almost copies' of Ritters basses, all he has to do is ask one of the 300 or so Chinese shops to exactly duplicate the Ritter look (it will take about two days) and Tsai will start selling copies that look the same (until they crack and fall apart). And these will start showing up on eBay. And Jens will end up spending his time chasing fakes rather than making guitars.
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You can't look at eBay without internet access... at least it's a lot harder to do;)

If you take that same browser and go to Jen's website and point him to the eBay link and ask the simple question of authenticity... that's not a lot of effort to put into a purchase, is it? Or go to a site like TB and ask.

Again... caveat emptor. These are not exact copies so you're taking this in a non-existent direction. If someone would take the time to do a reasonable copy of a Ritter it wouldn't be very cost effective vs. the risk. How hard is it to go online and verify an instrument, especially at that pricepoint.

And for the people who would look at one example of a builder's work and think that represents EVERYTHING they do... oh well.

Check all of these sources in China (just a few from alibaba)

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Heibei Shenglun Musical Instrument Co., Ltd.
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Beijing Tongyun Musical Instruments Firm
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When you show me an actual copy of a Ritter, these might be relevant.
 
#86
Lokire said:
Again, fake Rolex watches for example actually say "Rolex" on the face and often look exactly like a real Rolex.
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Rolex is not a good example, because they are actually made here in Hong Kong (with some parts from just up north). This is true of most 'Swiss' watches. The fakes typically just use cheaper materials on the face (except Bulgari, they use the same). The movements are the same (or for electronic watches, better, since they use Seiko). Watches almost never come in for maintenance.

A better example is, say, Honda's motorcycles. There is now a perfect copy available from ChongQing complete with Honda logos, of one of their 400cc sportbikes. These have been sold in Taiwan, Thailand, etc. Because cheaper materials and lower tolerances are used, there is likelihood of frame failure, shock failure, poor handling, and engine problems. Honda will find all of these on its doorstep.

Similarly, a Ritter knockoff will lack quality parts and the fit and tolerances of a real Ritter. There will be a difference, and it will hurt the Ritter brand.
 
#87
Ok, yeah. But the Honda knockoffs aren't a good example either, because they're being sold as a "Honda" that looks exactly like the real thing. Obviously people should always be suspicious of such things being sold overseas (and here in the US too), but those bikes could easily be mistaken for the real thing at first sight, or over the internet. These basses could not, if the buyer has any knowledge of Ritter basses at all.

These basses are not exact copies of Ritter basses. They are not being sold as "Ritter" basses, "Ritter style" basses, copies, knockoffs, or anything like that. They're not being advertised as such. It's only because we at Talkbass know Jens Ritter's instruments that we can look at these Antoniotsai basses and say "that has a body style simmilar to a Ritter".

So again, how does the lack of quality of a cheaper bass like this which obviously isn't a real Ritter, hurt the Ritter brand at all? I just don't see it. Is someone going to buy one of these Antoniotsai basses (that just happens to have a simmilar body shape as a Ritter) for cheap, find out that it doesn't have very good fretwork, and then claim that it's somehow Jens Ritter's fault? :confused:
 
#89
Lokire said:
Ok, yeah. But the Honda knockoffs aren't a good example either, because they're being sold as a "Honda" that looks exactly like the real thing. Obviously people should always be suspicious of such things being sold overseas (and here in the US too), but those bikes could easily be mistaken for the real thing at first sight, or over the internet. These basses could not, if the buyer has any knowledge of Ritter basses at all.

These basses are not exact copies of Ritter basses. They are not being sold as "Ritter" basses, "Ritter style" basses, copies, knockoffs, or anything like that. They're not being advertised as such. It's only because we at Talkbass know Jens Ritter's instruments that we can look at these Antoniotsai basses and say "that has a body style simmilar to a Ritter".

So again, how does the lack of quality of a cheaper bass like this which obviously isn't a real Ritter, hurt the Ritter brand at all? I just don't see it. Is someone going to buy one of these Antoniotsai basses (that just happens to have a simmilar body shape as a Ritter) for cheap, find out that it doesn't have very good fretwork, and then claim that it's somehow Jens Ritter's fault? :confused:
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I agree completely Lokire, I have no idea *** some of these folks are thinking. This is not the same as that douchebag from south america using Ken Smith's name selling those crappy copies. Again, as I said earlier, anyone who is seriously considering a ritter could in no way get one of these as a replacement. They'd have to be beyond ignorant to think that these instruments and ritters were even comparable. All that being said, since I lost the auction, I'm just going to put a deposit on another carvin, probably an IC6. I seriously doubt I really have any need for that high-F, or for that matter, going the other way, I definitely don't have the bass cabinets for a low F#. Plus, the shipping from over seas, sketchy import-customs routine along with the fact that I'd have to get the fret's leveled, makes me even more deterred now.
 
#100
Brad Johnson said:
If there's any shame, I'd guess some people who paid way more than this for some of those other copies should be crippled by it.
:D
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I dont know what you're implying by this, but I do not own copies, nor do I own a Ritter, or a Smith for that matter. I just think that if you think Ritters rock then save up and get yourself the real thing instead of buying cheap copies (not telling you what to do, just my opinion on the matter). My use of the word illegal was wrong, I learned that recently so spare me on that one.

Lokire: As far as Mr. Ritter not minding people copying his basses, I think that if indeed he did not, he wouldn't buy them himself off eBay to burn them afterwards ;)
 

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